WI: Spanish Introduce Camels to Americas

[Plumber]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

In the same sense that dogs aren't wolfs.

So you mean that they are.

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by b12ox

Is this map fully correct? there sure are camels in Cental Asia which is much further north than the blue in the map suggests. Diffrent breeds of horses require diffrent grass to feed on. This could have been the case with Camles transported to America. Their stomachs might not have been able to get used to local grass.

Nah, camels are pretty much like goats, they will survive on anything.

Besides, there have been camels in North America until practically yesterday in geological terms, same as horses. So if mustangs could arise, so could feral camels if given enough numbers.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Timmy811

Dromaderies are definitely camels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel

We do differentiate camels and dromadaries in french.

We call this "chameau"


And this "dromadaire"

I did not know both were called camel in english.

[Timmy811]

They're the same genus.

[miguelrj]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

Miocene actually, long before the Pleistocene.

Originally Posted by b12ox

Is this map fully correct? there sure are camels in Cental Asia which is much further north than the blue in the map suggests.

Just how dare you challenge Wikipedia!

[mowque]

So the America's would end up with a massive feral population, just like Australia? I wonder if the Apache or whoever would try to re-tame them. In any case, it would be terrible for the American West's ecosystem.

[Timmy811]

Originally Posted by mowque

So the America's would end up with a massive feral population, just like Australia? I wonder if the Apache or whoever would try to re-tame them. In any case, it would be terrible for the American West's ecosystem.

They evolved there and were likely wiped out by human hunting. I doubt it would be bad at all. It's not like they wouldn't have natural predators.

[mowque]

Originally Posted by Timmy811

They evolved there and were likely wiped out by human hunting. I doubt it would be bad at all. It's not like they wouldn't have natural predators.

That was tens of thousands of years ago (and were totally different camels, I'ms ure!). The American West is a fragile environment, already destined to be trashed by irrigation projects and deforestation. One other thing I didn't think of-

The effects on built infrastructure may be severe, as camels may sometimes destroy taps, pumps and even toilets as a means to obtain water, particularly in times of severe drought. They also damage stock fences and cattle watering points.

I wonder if you'll see a drive to kill them by cattlemen?

[chr92]

They are very slow breeders. With even light predation, and I think humans are likely to hunt them (and probably coyotes would go after the calves), they're likely to go extinct, or near it.

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Timmy811

They evolved there and were likely wiped out by human hunting. I doubt it would be bad at all. It's not like they wouldn't have natural predators.

The native species' main predators were probably species such as the Scimitar-toothed Cat and the American Cheetah, both of which are also (almost* certainly) extinct.




(*I only say "almost" certainly because there is speculation that the scarce 'Onza' of Mexico actually represents a surviving population of the Cheetahs rather than just an aberrant form of the [closely related] Puma...)

[Dave Howery]

Originally Posted by chr92

They are very slow breeders. With even light predation, and I think humans are likely to hunt them (and probably coyotes would go after the calves), they're likely to go extinct, or near it.

IIRC, that's what happened to the ones the Americans released... the natives hunted them all down before they had a chance to establish themselves.

Originally Posted by Simreeve

(*I only say "almost" certainly because there is speculation that the scarce 'Onza' of Mexico actually represents a surviving population of the Cheetahs rather than just an aberrant form of the [closely related] Puma...)

one of my books on 'unexplained phenomena' notes that genetic testing was done on an onza carcass, and it is just an aberrant form of the puma...

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

one of my books on 'unexplained phenomena' notes that genetic testing was done on an onza carcass, and it is just an aberrant form of the puma...

I've read that as well... but as the two species were apparently very close relatives anyway, and we apparently have only bones rather than soft tissue preserved for the Ameerican Cheetah, the question arises of whether those experts actually know how different the Cheetah's genes would have been from the Puma's in the first place. You can't really say exactly how far something lies out along a range if you've only got accurate data for one end of that range, can you?

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Tobit

Spanish explorers in the area were able to rely on Native American trade routes that criss crossed South West. They basically were able to do the enslaving, converting, and trading they wanted to do based on those routes. However it would be interesting if an especially quixotic Spaniard, decided that the Golden cities were being hidden from them and he needed to cross the Deserts for even longer trips. Of course he wouldn't find anything, and likely he would have spent more on importing the camels than any possible material wealth he could find in the deserts.

Agreed. The legion of El Dorado in the SW USA would be a good starting point, and once they are established in the wild by say 1570, then they can be spread to other dry areas.

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

The native species' main predators were probably species such as the Scimitar-toothed Cat and the American Cheetah, both of which are also (almost* certainly) extinct.

Pumas, jaguars, bobcats, wolves, coyotes, black and brown bears, ruminant competitors like elks and pronghorns, etc. were there back then and are still now. So it wouldn't be as bad as Australia. And if all of those fail, there is still the most efficient predator of all: trigger-happy ranchers.