That Wacky Redhead

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Are you claiming to be a fan of "My Ding-a-Ling"? I have no intention of butterflying it away, but... well, to each his own.

I have a fondness for quirky comedy records that against expectations reach number 1. For the same reason, I liked Ernie (The Fastest Milkman in the West) even though I was never a particular fan of Benny Hill.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

"Welcome home, welcome home... Welcome home, welcome home..." Catchy. Then again, I'm an avowed fan of 1970s-era Muzak

To each his own

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Odd that they call it The Muppets when it is constantly described in the opening titles as The Muppet Show.

If memory serves, it was generally called The Muppets in the UK, in spite of the title. Sesame Street had only been shown on a limited basis on ITV and not in all regions, so The Muppet Show was the real introduction of the Muppets to Britain.

Originally Posted by Thande

I just remembered something I wanted to ask earlier...we've had a lot about the alt Bond films, but what about different choices of artist to do the theme songs? Can anyone think of any good possibilities? I'm put in mind of something Mitch Benn once put together (possibly on Jammin' on Radio 2, but can't remember) which was a "what if the Beatles had done the soundtrack for a James Bond film in 1966" or something like that. Obviously that's not on the cards for TTL given the different timescale, but what other interesting choices of artist can we think of?

Maybe Queen's performance on the title song for Moonraker leads to other Prog Rock groups being chosen. How about Alan Parsons ? This might result in the Alan Parsons Project being more popular in the UK (strangely IOTL they've been more popular in the USA and mainland Europe than in Britain).

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by Thande

I just remembered something I wanted to ask earlier...we've had a lot about the alt Bond films, but what about different choices of artist to do the theme songs? Can anyone think of any good possibilities? I'm put in mind of something Mitch Benn once put together (possibly on Jammin' on Radio 2, but can't remember) which was a "what if the Beatles had done the soundtrack for a James Bond film in 1966" or something like that. Obviously that's not on the cards for TTL given the different timescale, but what other interesting choices of artist can we think of?

For the next film in the Bond series - Live and Let Die, to be directed by Steven Spielberg, and released in 1976 - I already have an artist or group in mind, as well as a general idea of the song that he or she (or they) will be performing. No hints, though - sorry. That said, the next Bond film after that, which is tentatively planned to be The Man with the Golden Gun, has no chosen performer(s) at this time. It's the last film likely to have a theme that is either Prog- or Funk-influenced, before the newer musical genres of the late 1970s (which may or may not mesh with those of OTL) assert themselves. I would certainly welcome any suggestions.

Originally Posted by NCW8

To each his own

Touché!

(Which reminds me of another yet useless Hanna-Barbera character: Touché Turtle. There really were legions of them, weren't there?)

Originally Posted by NCW8

Maybe Queen's performance on the title song for Moonraker leads to other Prog Rock groups being chosen. How about Alan Parsons ? This might result in the Alan Parsons Project being more popular in the UK (strangely IOTL they've been more popular in the USA and mainland Europe than in Britain).

Well, you know what they say - Germans Love David Hasselhoff. And, after all, it's so easy when you're Big In Japan!

Also, I hope to have the next update ready in the next few days. Thank you all for your patience

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

For the next film in the Bond series - Live and Let Die, to be directed by Steven Spielberg, and released in 1976 - I already have an artist or group in mind, as well as a general idea of the song that he or she (or they) will be performing. No hints, though - sorry. That said, the next Bond film after that, which is tentatively planned to be The Man with the Golden Gun, has no chosen performer(s) at this time. It's the last film likely to have a theme that is either Prog- or Funk-influenced, before the newer musical genres of the late 1970s (which may or may not mesh with those of OTL) assert themselves. I would certainly welcome any suggestions.

Your take on The Man With The Golden Gun (my personal favourite Bond film, albeit largely for personal reasons) should be interesting. That's another one which has virtually nothing in common with its source book so you can do pretty much whatever you want with it. The OTL film was clearly influenced by the Yom Kippur War oil shock at the time, with the macguffin being a revolutionary solar energy cell that would solve the energy crisis (and also allow Scaramanga to somehow power a giant laser thing to destroy Bond's plane because shut up).

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Touché!

(Which reminds me of another yet useless Hanna-Barbera character: Touché Turtle. There really were legions of them, weren't there?)

A turtle wielding a sword ? That'll never catch on




As a matter of interest, is there any Hanna-Barbera cartoon that you like ? Maybe the Flintstones ?

Cheers,
Nigel.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by NCW8

That'll never catch on

It took long enough... I wish I'd bought every copy of the Turtles & Grendel I could get my hands on when they came out. (My local couldn't give them away.) Just a year or two later, I could have made a killing.

[Thande]

I do find it curious how Hanna-Barbera seems to have quite the hatedom nowadays. Their cartoons were insanely popular in the 1960s here and remain memetically quoted by people of a certain age.

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by Thande

I do find it curious how Hanna-Barbera seems to have quite the hatedom nowadays. Their cartoons were insanely popular in the 1960s here and remain memetically quoted by people of a certain age.

You're almost certainly drastically understating just how popular The Flinstones, The Jetsons, and Scooby Doo were (and are).

And it isn't as though the alternatives were all that well animated, either. (Although for my money you just can't beat lyrics like: "Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got radioactive blood!")

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

You're almost certainly drastically understating just how popular The Flinstones, The Jetsons, and Scooby Doo were (and are).

And it isn't as though the alternatives were all that well animated, either. (Although for my money you just can't beat lyrics like: "Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got radioactive blood!")

Yeah, at the time we never had a problem with the animation. (I am of that generation that grew up in the 80s and was thus slightly confused by the fact that children's TV used to routinely put on cartoons made in every era from the 1930s to the present on all in the same block in a random order...)

[Brainbin]

Look at all of you, bringing back fond childhood memories!

Originally Posted by Thande

Your take on The Man With The Golden Gun (my personal favourite Bond film, albeit largely for personal reasons) should be interesting. That's another one which has virtually nothing in common with its source book so you can do pretty much whatever you want with it. The OTL film was clearly influenced by the Yom Kippur War oil shock at the time, with the macguffin being a revolutionary solar energy cell that would solve the energy crisis (and also allow Scaramanga to somehow power a giant laser thing to destroy Bond's plane because shut up).

Let's take the Bond discussion to PM; I'm now sensing an opportunity to take advantage of your enthusiasm and expertise on the subject for my own nefarious purposes

Originally Posted by NCW8

A turtle wielding a sword ? That'll never catch on

Ah, the Turtles. The first big kiddie pop-culture craze I can remember (vaguely; Pogs and Power Rangers stick much clearer in my memory, having come about when I had reached school age). I know that they were a pretty big deal across the pond, though under the censored name of Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles (it always amuses me that "ninja" was censored but "mutant" was not). This ridiculous title censorship is hardly limited to the UK, of course. In Canada, the popular 1990s Transformers series was known as Beasties instead of Beast Wars because the word "war" was not permitted in a children's program (never mind that a Canadian studio animated the show). Having watched the program in my youth, I still can't help but chant "Beasties!" whenever I see it. (Alas, the Canadian opening is not on YouTube, even though the Canadian version of the openings to both the original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are. Come on, my fellow Millennials, get on that!)

Originally Posted by NCW8

As a matter of interest, is there any Hanna-Barbera cartoon that you like ? Maybe the Flintstones ?

And now for more early '90s recollections. I remember that, when I was very small, they were pushing The Flintstones quite hard on young audiences (celebrating its 30th and 35th anniversaries - in 1990 and 1995, respectively - and in the latter case interviewing children talking about the show, IIRC). I blame Ted Turner, simply because I can, and because he is positively kooky. That said, when I was a kid, sure I liked The Flintstones, but I was too young to know better (more on that later). I liked The Jetsons too; it had been revived in the late 1980s for a syndication run, culminating in the 1990 film starring Tiffany, of all people, as Judy Jetson (and yes, she did sing), and featuring the legendary Mel Blanc's last-ever performance (he died partway through production). In fact, of all Hanna-Barbera productions, I probably like it the most; it's just so delightfully Zeerustic that it's hard to resist. It also has, for my money, the best theme song in the Hanna-Barbera catalogue. Let's hear it again, one more time!
And yes, I know about the Runaway Guys version. No, that has not diminished my appreciation of the original version one iota.
Many Hanna-Barbera shows, though, I disliked from the outset, even as a kid. Yogi Bear and Scooby-Doo in particular. I've also gone on for some length about Wacky Races in the past; so I'll spare everyone a rehash of that rant. (If you're really interested, you can find my additional thoughts on Hanna-Barbera all the way back on Page Four).

Originally Posted by phx1138

It took long enough... I wish I'd bought every copy of the Turtles & Grendel I could get my hands on when they came out. (My local couldn't give them away.) Just a year or two later, I could have made a killing.

Fortunately, it's only my job to report on why fads became so popular after the fact. I'm nowhere near the prognosticator that I am the pop culture historian, believe me.

Originally Posted by Thande

I do find it curious how Hanna-Barbera seems to have quite the hatedom nowadays. Their cartoons were insanely popular in the 1960s here and remain memetically quoted by people of a certain age.

I blame limited animation (which has accrued a positively toxic reputation over the last two decades), and over-reliance on the same stock characters, many of whom are either incredibly boring or profoundly annoying. While, at the same time, utterly lacking in the cleverness of say, classic Looney Tunes, or the sincerity of early Disney, or the iconoclasm of Bakshi and his ilk, or the willingness to take chances of any of these. A lot of these faults also apply to Filmation, the other major animation studio of the 1970s; but at least they're dead and buried now, whereas the Hanna-Barbera stable lives on, for better or (mostly) for worse. Also, at least Filmation did take occasional risks, like the animated Star Trek series IOTL. If you look at the other cartoons that studio was making in the early 1970s, it's night and day.

Originally Posted by Andrew T

You're almost certainly drastically understating just how popular The Flinstones, The Jetsons, and Scooby Doo were (and are).

You know what's frightening? Scooby-Doo has been in virtually continuous production (in one incarnation or another) since its inception in 1969 - that's over forty years straight. Now I've never cared for that show in any of its versions, but it obviously speaks to a lot of people. Even The Simpsons might not make it to 25, but they did!

Originally Posted by Andrew T

And it isn't as though the alternatives were all that well animated, either. (Although for my money you just can't beat lyrics like: "Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got radioactive blood!")

I'm a man who is willing to forgive many things for a great theme song, and that of course is one of the greatest of all time, so I obviously can't hate the 1960s Spider-Man cartoon. I've been informed that it's actually a relatively faithful adaptation, which is impressive considering that it came out barely five years after the first issue.

Originally Posted by Thande

Yeah, at the time we never had a problem with the animation. (I am of that generation that grew up in the 80s and was thus slightly confused by the fact that children's TV used to routinely put on cartoons made in every era from the 1930s to the present on all in the same block in a random order...)

Exactly. To go back to what I was saying earlier, I honestly think that kids just don't notice animation quality. I certainly didn't. For an example, I remembered Felix the Cat: the Movie as a lavish, well-animated film from when I had seen it in my childhood; but catching up on YouTube a while back, I couldn't believe how wrong I was. (The art direction was good, but the animation is just terrible - note also the gratuitous CGI introduction). The dramatic improvement in animation quality for cartoons in the 1980s (stateside, that is - you can speak to whether or not this was also true with British-funded productions) is largely the result of outsourcing production to foreign markets (including, most notably, Japan) - labour was cheaper and they did better work. Those American studios that did survive (and there weren't many) couldn't cut corners anymore.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Let's take the Bond discussion to PM; I'm now sensing an opportunity to take advantage of your enthusiasm and expertise on the subject for my own nefarious purposes

Go ahead, feel free.

Ah, the Turtles. The first big kiddie pop-culture craze I can remember (vaguely; Pogs and Power Rangers stick much clearer in my memory, having come about when I had reached school age). I know that they were a pretty big deal across the pond, though under the censored name of Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles (it always amuses me that "ninja" was censored but "mutant" was not). This ridiculous title censorship is hardly limited to the UK, of course. In Canada, the popular 1990s Transformers series was known as Beasties instead of Beast Wars because the word "war" was not permitted in a children's program (never mind that a Canadian studio animated the show). Having watched the program in my youth, I still can't help but chant "Beasties!" whenever I see it. (Alas, the Canadian opening is not on YouTube, even though the Canadian version of the openings to both the original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are. Come on, my fellow Millennials, get on that!)

An interesting consequence of that is that ninjas seem to have been far less popular and memetic here in the UK in the 80s than they were in America (not absent altogether, but driven chiefly by more obscure stuff like Sega's Shinobi games). I still find it bizarre whenever anyone mentions the word 'ninja' in connexion with the Turtles because it's not what you picture at all, and as you say the word wasn't used by the British and European versions of the cartoon. It's like someone telling you that Mickey Mouse is known as Mickey the Assassin in America or something.

I blame limited animation (which has accrued a positively toxic reputation over the last two decades), and over-reliance on the same stock characters, many of whom are either incredibly boring or profoundly annoying. While, at the same time, utterly lacking in the cleverness of say, classic Looney Tunes, or the sincerity of early Disney, or the iconoclasm of Bakshi and his ilk, or the willingness to take chances of any of these. A lot of these faults also apply to Filmation, the other major animation studio of the 1970s; but at least they're dead and buried now, whereas the Hanna-Barbera stable lives on, for better or (mostly) for worse. Also, at least Filmation did take occasional risks, like the animated Star Trek series IOTL. If you look at the other cartoons that studio was making in the early 1970s, it's night and day.

But I think that 'comfort zone' style of Hanna-Barbera is part of the reason why people like it, especially since they became popular in times of national and global trouble: they were comfortingly reliable. And as Andrew says above, I was not exaggerating about how influential they were. I don't know how it is in the USA but certainly in the UK it is literally impossible to mention Yellowstone National Park and not have someone immediately make a Yogi Bear reference. The Amero-philia of the sixties plays a role as well: people appreciated the Flintstones and the Jetsons here on a different level because they were making jokes about prehistoric or futuristic versions of household appliances that most people in Britain still didn't have: it lent an extra level of surreality and wish fulfilment to the proceedings.

You know what's frightening? Scooby-Doo has been in virtually continuous production (in one incarnation or another) since its inception in 1969 - that's over forty years straight. Now I've never cared for that show in any of its versions, but it obviously speaks to a lot of people. Even The Simpsons might not make it to 25, but they did!

My memories of Scooby-Doo are significantly influenced by the aforementioned "put cartoons from all eras on in a random order" factor--CITV would routinely show one of the bad episodes with Scrappy Doo (but I repeat myself) followed by one of the early episodes from 1969 and then one of the ones in between that relied on celebrity guests and then... It was rather confusing, especially since the later series used real ghosts and supernatural events whereas the earlier ones had been definitively sceptical in tone and it was always down to Old Man Jameson in a suit. I got something similar with Tom and Jerry and Looney Tunes because the random order meant you got Thirties 'off-model' looking versions of the characters with more slapstick (and dodgy race-related stuff) in the middle of more recently made ones from the Sixties.

Exactly. To go back to what I was saying earlier, I honestly think that kids just don't notice animation quality. I certainly didn't. For an example, I remembered Felix the Cat: the Movie as a lavish, well-animated film from when I had seen it in my childhood; but catching up on YouTube a while back, I couldn't believe how wrong I was. (The art direction was good, but the animation is just terrible - note also the gratuitous CGI introduction). The dramatic improvement in animation quality for cartoons in the 1980s (stateside, that is - you can speak to whether or not this was also true with British-funded productions) is largely the result of outsourcing production to foreign markets (including, most notably, Japan) - labour was cheaper and they did better work. Those American studios that did survive (and there weren't many) couldn't cut corners anymore.

Very true. I remember when the Nostalgia Critic reviewed the Pound Puppies film he pointed out lots of lazy animation (like establishing shots of cities with cars not moving) that I didn't notice at all when I saw it as a kid.

The outsourcing thing you mention also applied here--The Dreamstone, one of my favourite programmes as a kid, was noted for the quality of its animation because it outsourced cel production to the Philippines and Malaysia.

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by Thande

My memories of Scooby-Doo are significantly influenced by the aforementioned "put cartoons from all eras on in a random order" factor--CITV would routinely show one of the bad episodes with Scrappy Doo (but I repeat myself) followed by one of the early episodes from 1969 and then one of the ones in between that relied on celebrity guests and then... It was rather confusing, especially since the later series used real ghosts and supernatural events whereas the earlier ones had been definitively sceptical in tone and it was always down to Old Man Jameson in a suit. I got something similar with Tom and Jerry and Looney Tunes because the random order meant you got Thirties 'off-model' looking versions of the characters with more slapstick (and dodgy race-related stuff) in the middle of more recently made ones from the Sixties.

I've never really liked Scooby-Doo, but I've always appreciated that the (original, apparently) show was written by skeptics. It was never actually a ghost or Frankenstein monster or zombie who did it; it was always a real person in a mask using a souped-up projector or something. It's sort of like if Carl Sagan produced a cartoon in addition to Cosmos (which I adored, as a child and now).

Hopefully, Cosmos (1980) manages to survive ITTL....

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I've never really liked Scooby-Doo, but I've always appreciated that the (original, apparently) show was written by skeptics.

I know, I always viewed that as being an intrinsic core concept to the show, making it all the more inexplicable when later versions dropped it in favour of actual supernatural stuff. It's as though Jonathan Creek suddenly had an episode where a woman thinks she's being stalked by vampires and she actually is!

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

you just can't beat lyrics like: "Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got radioactive blood!"

I count myself fortunate I was too young to realize how bad that was. (And have only watched bits of it since, & realized I was lucky.) It remains a mystery why I watched it at all.

I have to think it was just at the time I was starting to understand the difference between good & bad. Still reading Tom Swift at the time, & beginning to read Butterworth IIRC, but having discovered L'Engle & Heinlein...& never looked back.

Also showing, I think, some bias in favor of Britfic, liking "Cap Scarlett" & "Thunderbirds" but not (yet) sick to death of "Flintstones" repeats every damn day at noon. (Give it maybe two more years...) I should say, more than a bit of that went over my head; it was 20yr before I got the "Peter Gunnite" joke, really.(?)

Shortly also liking "UFO" a lot (& giving "1999" more room, on the coolness of the base & the Eagles, than it probably deserved). I was also, tho, watching for the ideas, the approach, the settings, & such, & less for the high writing quality (something I won't do now).

Originally Posted by Brainbin

the 1960s Spider-Man cartoon. I've been informed that it's actually a relatively faithful adaptation, which is impressive considering that it came out barely five years after the first issue.

Do you happen to know if that was by a Canadian studio? What with Paul Soles as Peter, I always thought it was. (That & the chintzy animation...)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I honestly think that kids just don't notice animation quality.

I did on Spidey (& "Rocket Robin Hood"); I just had no frame of reference, since I don't think I've ever seen any Disney animation. (I know, now, it's the gold standard.) It wasn't til years later, seeing clips, I realized what the really good stuff should look like. (Not a fan of "Heavy Metal", either.)

That said, I did like "Underdog" & whatsisface the spy ("I've got my licence to kill, now if I can only find my licence to drive."). Of course, I was about 6, & I was also watching diving & curling on CBC.

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Scooby-Doo...was never actually a ghost or Frankenstein monster or zombie

Confessing I've never seen more than tiny bits (& passing refs in "Buffy" I never quite got), I don't understand why you'd do a show on ghosts but not about ghosts...

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Thande

But I think that 'comfort zone' style of Hanna-Barbera is part of the reason why people like it, especially since they became popular in times of national and global trouble: they were comfortingly reliable. And as Andrew says above, I was not exaggerating about how influential they were. I don't know how it is in the USA but certainly in the UK it is literally impossible to mention Yellowstone National Park and not have someone immediately make a Yogi Bear reference.

Well, he is smarter than the average bear

Originally Posted by Thande

The Amero-philia of the sixties plays a role as well: people appreciated the Flintstones and the Jetsons here on a different level because they were making jokes about prehistoric or futuristic versions of household appliances that most people in Britain still didn't have: it lent an extra level of surreality and wish fulfilment to the proceedings.

That's a very good point. It's interesting how many of Gerry Anderson's productions had an American feel to them - one of the early ones was a western called Four Feather Falls. Obviously he was trying to sell to the US market as well, but it certainly didn't hurt the popularity of his series in the UK.

Originally Posted by Thande

My memories of Scooby-Doo are significantly influenced by the aforementioned "put cartoons from all eras on in a random order" factor--CITV would routinely show one of the bad episodes with Scrappy Doo (but I repeat myself) followed by one of the early episodes from 1969 and then one of the ones in between that relied on celebrity guests and then... It was rather confusing, especially since the later series used real ghosts and supernatural events whereas the earlier ones had been definitively sceptical in tone and it was always down to Old Man Jameson in a suit.

I was lucky enough to see them in production order. I'm not ashamed to say that I enjoyed the first series. In later series, I couldn't see the point of having Batman or Laurel and Hardy in the show as well, but it wasn't too off-putting. Then Scrappy arrived and I stopped watching. I've probably only seen a couple of episodes where there were real ghosts.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

The dramatic improvement in animation quality for cartoons in the 1980s (stateside, that is - you can speak to whether or not this was also true with British-funded productions) is largely the result of outsourcing production to foreign markets (including, most notably, Japan) - labour was cheaper and they did better work. Those American studios that did survive (and there weren't many) couldn't cut corners anymore.

In the early seventies, my favourite British cartoon was probably Ivor the Engine. It used the technique of stop-motion animation of cardboard cut-out characters, which wasn't exactly state of the art at the time. Still, it had Steam Engines and Dragons, and more unusually it had Continuity. Stories frequently refered back to events in previous episodes.

I'd say that in the seventies in the UK, the best quality animation were stop-motion animation shows rather than cartoons. There was The Wombles, which was not only a successful series but also spawned a number of hit songs. There was Paddington, which had the unusual technique of having Paddington as an animated puppet while the rest of the cast were two-dimensional drawings. And there was The Clangers, which has an interesting Parental Bonus. Although the clangers spoke in whistles, everything they said was actually scripted, but the scripts weren't always child-friendly. The best example is at about 0:55 in this episode where Major Clanger says "Oh, sod it; the bloody thing’s stuck again".

Cheers,
Nigel.

[e of pi]

Originally Posted by phx1138

Confessing I've never seen more than tiny bits (& passing refs in "Buffy" I never quite got), I don't understand why you'd do a show on ghosts but not about ghosts...

Well, the mysteries usually ended up that the baddies were just disguising themselves as ghosts and monsters for whatever reason--trying to scare people so they'd sell their land for mining or development was pretty common, I also recall one with a ghost pirate that was actuallly just a bunch of live pirates with a fog generator and spooky voice. It was a show about ghosts sort of the same way Psych is a show about psychics.

Actually, one of the big things that I never realized until it was pointed out to me after having seen most of the original episodes on Cartoon Netowkr reruns was that the baddy in the original series was almost always the same person they meet who first tells them about the local monster--sort of designed to encourage kids to doubt people who tell storeis about paranormal stuff?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by NCW8

That's a very good point. It's interesting how many of Gerry Anderson's productions had an American feel to them - one of the early ones was a western called Four Feather Falls. Obviously he was trying to sell to the US market as well, but it certainly didn't hurt the popularity of his series in the UK.

It's interesting that Thunderbirds, Stingray and Captain Scarlet were all still shown on TV and all still popular (as was Joe 90 to a lesser extent) when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, and they were still manufacturing new merchandise and toys and selling them. I don't think I even realised as a kid that those shows had been made in the sixties.

The earlier stuff like Fireball XL5, Supercar and Four Feather Falls wasn't re-shown because it was black and white and had a low budget, but I've heard enough about it from my dad... "Two-Gun Tex from Texas" and all that. I believe it was more motivated by the aforementioned envious Amero-philia of fifties and sixties Britain than any attempt to appeal to the American market, I don't think that started in earnest until the Thunderbirds/Captain Scarlet era.

Also, I didn't realise this until TVTROPES pointed it out, but in retrospect it's obvious: those shows were incredibly influential on Japan, where many of them were popular, and Gerry Anderson's pioneering use of the "film an impressive startup procedure once and then use it as stock footage in every episode" technique has been used extensively in Japanese animes focusing on giant robots and that kind of thing.

In the early seventies, my favourite British cartoon was probably Ivor the Engine. It used the technique of stop-motion animation of cardboard cut-out characters, which wasn't exactly state of the art at the time. Still, it had Steam Engines and Dragons, and more unusually it had Continuity. Stories frequently refered back to events in previous episodes.

Ivor the Engine was awesome, though as a kid I was somewhat confused by its presence alongside Thomas the Tank Engine in the TV schedules and (as you do as a kid) wondered if they were supposed to take place in the same universe. I do think it was largely responsible for my generation (and the one before) finding Welsh accents inherently funny.

Limited animation can work--Mr Benn remains greatly beloved despite having animation so cheap and limited that they basically lampshaded and had fun with it.

I'd say that in the seventies in the UK, the best quality animation were stop-motion animation shows rather than cartoons. There was The Wombles, which was not only a successful series but also spawned a number of hit songs. There was Paddington, which had the unusual technique of having Paddington as an animated puppet while the rest of the cast were two-dimensional drawings. And there was The Clangers, which has an interesting Parental Bonus. Although the clangers spoke in whistles, everything they said was actually scripted, but the scripts weren't always child-friendly. The best example is at about 0:55 in this episode where Major Clanger says "Oh, sod it; the bloody thing’s stuck again".

Strangely enough I just had a PM discussion with Brainbin where separated-by-a-common-language came up, and apparently over there they refer to swannee whistles as "slide whistles", so just to clarify, that's what the Clangers spoke in. In a similar vein, my dad claims he can understand everything Sweep from the Sooty Show "says" in his "voice" before it gets translated by one of the speaking characters.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by e of pi

Well, the mysteries usually ended up that the baddies were just disguising themselves as ghosts and monsters for whatever reason--trying to scare people so they'd sell their land for mining or development was pretty common, I also recall one with a ghost pirate that was actuallly just a bunch of live pirates with a fog generator and spooky voice. It was a show about ghosts sort of the same way Psych is a show about psychics.

It's interesting that as the show was originally pitched I don't think there was actually meant to be a ghosts 'n' ghouls theme...I remember in an interview Joseph Barbera, IIRC, described the idea behind the show as "We had this idea for a group of teenagers who drive around in a van solving mysteries, then we threw in a dog, and he turned out to be the star of a show". I don't think the mysteries were initially supposed to always have a fake supernatural element, it just turned out that way.

Apparently the teenagers were originally supposed to be knockoffs of the Archies, playing in a touring rock band and only incidentally solving mysteries on the way--hence why they all drive around in a van together, which doesn't make that much sense when you think about it.

Actually, one of the big things that I never realized until it was pointed out to me after having seen most of the original episodes on Cartoon Netowkr reruns was that the baddy in the original series was almost always the same person they meet who first tells them about the local monster--sort of designed to encourage kids to doubt people who tell storeis about paranormal stuff?

That became a memetic joke after a while, it does rather spoil it when you can immediately tell who the baddy is. The stereotypical line is "It was old Mr. Jameson, the fairground owner, all along!" I remember at least one parody that played on this by having the gang completely ignore a blatant axe-murderer or something and arrest an innocent local fairground owner who happened to be the first person they'd met in the sketch just because that's what always happens...

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Thande

The earlier stuff like Fireball XL5, Supercar and Four Feather Falls wasn't re-shown because it was black and white and had a low budget, but I've heard enough about it from my dad... "Two-Gun Tex from Texas" and all that. I believe it was more motivated by the aforementioned envious Amero-philia of fifties and sixties Britain than any attempt to appeal to the American market, I don't think that started in earnest until the Thunderbirds/Captain Scarlet era.

I just about remember Fireball XL5 - the others were definitely before my time. It was impressive for the way that the spaceship was launched horizontally along a rail. According to Wikipedia, not only was Fireball XL5 sold to the US, it was the only Anderson production to be shown on network tv (NBC).

Just for the fun of it - here's the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore spoof SUPERTHUNDERSTINGCAR.

Originally Posted by Thande

Ivor the Engine was awesome, though as a kid I was somewhat confused by its presence alongside Thomas the Tank Engine in the TV schedules and (as you do as a kid) wondered if they were supposed to take place in the same universe. I do think it was largely responsible for my generation (and the one before) finding Welsh accents inherently funny.

Along with the stereotypical Welsh names - "Jones the Steam" and "Dai Station". We should probably gloss over Oliver Postgate's attempt at an Indian accent for the elephant keeper Bani Moukerjee.

Originally Posted by Thande

That became a memetic joke after a while, it does rather spoil it when you can immediately tell who the baddy is. The stereotypical line is "It was old Mr. Jameson, the fairground owner, all along!" I remember at least one parody that played on this by having the gang completely ignore a blatant axe-murderer or something and arrest an innocent local fairground owner who happened to be the first person they'd met in the sketch just because that's what always happens...

I did catch an episode from a later series where they lampshaded it. The villain was some-one that the gang hadn't met before and Thelma's reaction was "That isn't fair!".

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Falkenburg]

While we're reminiscing about stop-motion shows I need to express some love for The Flumps and Chorlton and The Wheelies.

Animation-wise, shows like Battle of The Planets, Will O The Wisp and Murun Buchstansangur appealed to me.

Falkenburg

[99lives]

Okay, just to jump on the Scooby-Doo bandwagon.

I liked the original show (I saw it first run). It had something no other cartoon had, a chance for me to figure out what was happening. There was an answer, and a motive, the mysteries were actual mysteries. It was much more interactive than its contemporaries.

Also, the show was, for its time, very empowering for children. It was a group of normal people, nothing special aside from a talking dog , taking on scary situations and showing that, once understood, there is nothing to be scared of. It was about problem solving and observation instead of fighting. Taken in the context of the sixties, the show reads like a primer for young activists.

Among the show's lessons:

• Don't trust everything someone is telling you
• Look for a human motive behind the seemingly inexplicable events
• Some people will use fear to get what they want or keep others in line
• It's okay to be scared, but don't let it stop you from doing what's right
• Only real evidence will lead to a real conclusion
• Violence is not as useful as cleverness
• You win by making the crime visible to the public, not beating up the bad guys.

So yeah, I liked the show. Then they went and added Scrappy Doo and undermined the whole damned thing.