An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Unknown

If you keep this up, you'll win a second Turtledove.

This is one of the most detailed timelines out there.

I hope you take this to the 21st century.

I think he will, i can't wait to see what is in store.

[Herzen's love-child]

Κομνηνοί to the modern era? Doesn't anyone believe in term limits!


Seriously, love to see republican tendencies eventually erupt in Byzantium (in due time). To the barricades!

[Basileus444]

Arrix85: The capital of Arles is Marseille. I meant Avignon to refer to the Papacy. ITTL I see the Avignon Papacy developing a bit of an inferiority complex, since its rivals Mainz and Constantinople are both protected by great empires, and it has Arles, at best an upper-tier second-rate.

Elfwine: Aaagh!! I is stupid. I meant Andronikos I Komnenos.

Unknown: Well, first I'd have to win a first Turtledove before I get the second. I would like to take this up to at least the year 2000.

Herzen's love-child: You would place term limits on the Vicegerent of God on Earth?!! Blasphemer!!! I do have an idea for the ToT where the Imperial Senate starts to regain at least a little power. That said, I do think Byzantine Republicianism would end up looking most like the Second Reich (for better or for worse) than say the British model.

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Thus on June 18, the birthday of Demetrios Megas, it is declared that a new palace shall be built upon what was the old acropolis of Byzantium (eventually known as the White Palace for its white columns inlaid with gypsum crystals). To illustrate the power and prestige of the Komnenid dynasty and the Roman Empire, the palace compound is to be vast, over 500,000 square meters when completed, with four great courtyards. The church of Saint Irene is to be in the first courtyard.

So, if I'm not mistaken, partially to the north-east of the old Great Palace. IOW, not a reconstruction/restoration of the ruins but (near) 100% brand new.

Originally Posted by Mathalamus

500,000 square feet for a new Roman palace? just what does it house? only the Emperor and his family, or is it more than that?

in my timeline, i usually just downsize the palace, to around 50,000 square feet, and make it look sort of like the White house.

oh and it was located where Topkapi Palace should be.

Square meters, i.e. almost 5 381 955 square feet. Huge if it were just a palace, not so considering that it includes the gardens/parks and will pretty much house the entire Imperial administration all by itself.

Also, 50 0000 square feet, if representing the ground plan, is about a ducal/Prince-Bishops palace (one, that isn't too rich). If representing total area of the rooms, it's a small dukes' palace, or a count's. For an imperial palace, it is frankly ridiculous. One of the differences between republics and monarchies...

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Herzen's love-child

Κομνηνοί to the modern era? Doesn't anyone believe in term limits!


Seriously, love to see republican tendencies eventually erupt in Byzantium (in due time). To the barricades!

God no, a legislature, a constitution and a well regulated succession is more than enough.

[Unknown]

Sorry, baselius444, I thought you had.

Some of the scenes in this TL seem written for a movie (like the scene of fifteen thousand horsemen heading towards the Roman lines) and are made for movies.

After reading about The Black Day, its no wonder Andreas is so messed up. Kinda makes you feel sorry for him (and Zoe, too).

[Herzen's love-child]

Originally Posted by Xavier

God no, a legislature, a constitution and a well regulated succession is more than enough.

for a constitutional royalist...

[Herzen's love-child]

...monarchist. I meant monarchist!

[Evilprodigy]

I have to ask...
Is there a Caliph of Islam?
IOTL the Ottomans would have adopted the title by now but they only did so because they took Mecca and because the current Caliph at the time, Al-Mutawakkil III Abbasid in Cairo, surrendered the title to the Ottoman sultan Selim I.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Arrix85: The capital of Arles is Marseille. I meant Avignon to refer to the Papacy. ITTL I see the Avignon Papacy developing a bit of an inferiority complex, since its rivals Mainz and Constantinople are both protected by great empires, and it has Arles, at best an upper-tier second-rate.

That's gonna be bad if Avignonese popes behave like renaissance princes. Won't they lose their attractiveness towards moderate reformers? the money has to come from somewhere... and their "papal state" is tiny at best, so revenue is gonna be way down, to counteract this...

[Herzen's love-child]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

That's gonna be bad if Avignonese popes behave like renaissance princes. Won't they lose their attractiveness towards moderate reformers? the money has to come from somewhere... and their "papal state" is tiny at best, so revenue is gonna be way down, to counteract this...

On the other hand, good for the Arts if they do start acting like renaissance princes!

Just realized that B444 probably nuked any number of my favorite Quattrocento painters & probably slaughtered a young Titian.

[elkarlo]

Originally Posted by Herzen's love-child

If you look at the 30 years War, battle by battle, consensus analysis of most (if not all battles---there can be a lot of disagreement among historians, surprise) seems to indicate that each side fielded armies of 30 thousand, tops. White Mountain--30,000 each side (one of the largest battles numerically) Breitenfeld, similar. Most of the battles of this war were fought with much smaller armies---Nordlingen, Rocroi, Lutzen---generally around 20,000 (give or take a few) a side.

true, but those were mostly merc armies. As well as operating in pretty destabilized/ foraged out areas.

I think bigger than 30k armies are hard to deal with, as they are cumbersome, and have to be deployed to engage the enemy, then quickly separated to save supplies.

[elkarlo]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Arrogance? Almost certainly.

And I think "massive" is only relative to England - 3-4 times England's population, if memory serves.

Wasn't Frances pop near 20m, while England's was around 4? That is 5 times, plus fighting in your own land, so that skews the numbers even more to the French.

[Elfwine]

Elkario:

Looking at the New Penguin Atlas of Medieval History, France (including Edward's lands in France) has - roughly - 13 million, England and Wales have three million, as of 1346.

On the other hand, this site mentions 22 million Frenchmen: http://staff.gps.edu/mines/Age%20of%...%20Century.htm

And I'm not sure in a feudal era fighting in your own land necessarily skews the figure's greatly in France's favor - most of those people wouldn't (until "we are French" feelings develop) care who their overlord is.

[Mathalamus]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Mathalamus: Emperor and family, kitchens, Imperial stables, Imperial treasury, an armoury, the mint, library, hospital, and a bathhouse, as well as quarters for the servants and some officials who live there as well (tutors for the family). And the White Palace is directly based off the Topkapi.

well, that makes sense. mine is usually just a place to live and work, and the other functions are located in different buildings. must be a nightmare to keep clean.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Elkario:

Looking at the New Penguin Atlas of Medieval History, France (including Edward's lands in France) has - roughly - 13 million, England and Wales have three million, as of 1346.

On the other hand, this site mentions 22 million Frenchmen: http://staff.gps.edu/mines/Age%20of%...%20Century.htm

And I'm not sure in a feudal era fighting in your own land necessarily skews the figure's greatly in France's favor - most of those people wouldn't (until "we are French" feelings develop) care who their overlord is.

They would if the overlord was an asshole. Also, depends on culture of overlord as well.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Tongera

They would if the overlord was an asshole. Also, depends on culture of overlord as well.

"My overlord is an asshole, this entitles me to rebel" is a largely post-medieval development when it comes to the common man - and most of the medieval exceptions involve burghers, not peasants.

And being ruled by "foreigners" is not much of an issue for the average medieval peasant (or burgher or noble) unless those foreigners impose foreign laws - just being, to look at what Denmark got, German doesn't make you unpopular.

[Avitus]

I know it's not relevant to this TL at the moment, but as long as the subject is on populations of early renaissance countries, does anyone have a good idea of what Ireland and Scotland had at this time OTL? I'm curious as to how big a threat the other British nations are to the British holdings of England-France, and population is definitely a biggie, even more so before industrialization.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

"My overlord is an asshole, this entitles me to rebel" is a largely post-medieval development when it comes to the common man - and most of the medieval exceptions involve burghers, not peasants.

I meant if the overlord for example taxes very heavily for lavish court spending (peasants might be more forgiving if it was spent on useful things). Or if the overlord displeases someone well liked by the peasants.

[Evilprodigy]

Originally Posted by Avitus

I know it's not relevant to this TL at the moment, but as long as the subject is on populations of early renaissance countries, does anyone have a good idea of what Ireland and Scotland had at this time OTL? I'm curious as to how big a threat the other British nations are to the British holdings of England-France, and population is definitely a biggie, even more so before industrialization.

All of Ireland is about a million in 1500, not sure about Scotland.