Glen's Star Wars Prequels

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

All right, once again strongly emphasizing that I am not really a Star Wars fan, and probably not the best person to be asking to review these scripts, I'll do my best to critique the story structure.

I appreciate having a different perspective, though, and in someone with a good knowledge of general pop culture.

The introductory bit with Anakin flying around was good,

Check.

but it hit a brick wall when Obi-Wan showed up. The expository dialogue between them felt awkward and forced to me.

It felt very similar to me to the scenes in the original Star Wars when Obi-Wan is speaking to Luke in his home and again on the Millenium Falcon while they are in transit. I will look back over it though to see if some polishing can be done.

Anakin just shrugging and saying "Okay, I guess I'll become a Jedi" did not ring true at all. He's an ace fighter pilot! Sure, he's a bit of a loose cannon, but he gets results! And, of course, it's in keeping with the old WWII cliches. That said, I did appreciate that you showed him to be the best star pilot in the galaxy. Even though I think the Force cheapens it (oh of course he's that good, it was the Will of the Force!). I know that's part of the overall mythology, so obviously you have to follow along with it.

Maybe it doesn't come across well in the script, but it's like being told you are born to be a superhero. Who doesn't want to be a legendary superhero? Even if you are a damned fine pilot. And you are correct that the mythology sort of implies this. However, it is the combination of his excellent piloting skills and the Force that make him the absolute best. To deny or denigrate it for that would be like saying it lessens being a great pilot if you have faster than normal reaction time.

I still didn't like Jar-Jar. The mocking "alleged idiot" routine when they first arrived on the planet and he was trying to pull one over on the clone trooper felt way too self-indulgent with regards to OTL - I would cut that entirely.

It is a bit indulgent. I might be able to make it more relevant however. You may also consider it a holdover from Lucas' original concept for the character.

But overall, the character still felt like a "load" on all the others - his one bargaining chip was the alternate route into and out of the city.

That's kinda a big one.

Contrast Han and Chewie in the original movie, who repeatedly made themselves useful to Luke throughout the film.

Remind me again what Chewie actually does in the original Star Wars? He's a sidekick, a cool sounding and looking one, but he doesn't really do anything that another character couldn't or wouldn't.

Also, I thought that the heroic rescue scene of the Queen was redundant, once someone tried to kill her - Obi-Wan and Anakin arrive in the nick of time!

Actually, I was going for a bit of irony there - they arrive just after the nick of time! It was only Amidala's decoy precautions that save her the first time.

And then someone else suddenly tries to kill her too!

Yeah, the assassin's back up! I personally like that they planted two assassins. Now then, the problem may be in the timing of the activation of the second one - I could either delay the actual entry of Obi-Wan and Anakin until after the first one kills the decoy and Padme reveals herself, and they thwart the second on on arrival, or I could have the second one bide their time and strike when there is another opportunity when people are distracted, maybe during the evacuation, though the problem with that second option is I have tried to make it clear that the Jedi can tell if someone is a clone.

I think you should merge those two assassination attempts into one. Because the invasion of the city follows right on its heels anyway, so the second assassination attempt is superfluous. You can have the first assassin be a "longtime friend".

I suppose I could, though then there's no 'fail to save' then 'save' whiplash which I kind of like - either they fail to save during the attempt but it doesn't matter or they succeed, and the decoy doesn't matter.

Same with going down to Boss Nass twice. It felt redundant to me. I know you had important story reasons to do it, but again, there was a lot of repetition in the dialogue.

I have less problem with this, since the first really just introduces us to the city and its people, and the second is where the action gets going, though the dialogue could possibly be worked on to make the points of discussion more diverse in the two scenes.

Also, why would the Clone army dangle a lucrative deal at Nass only to revoke the offer before he has had time to respond? That creates false tension for a split second before it is mitigated by outside circumstances

Didn't you read the crawl? Because the clones are the bad guys! Okay, more seriously, it is mainly for moving the plot along - I can justify it by saying the clones had no intention of making any deal, that they were always planning to conquer, and they were just using the bad faith negotiations as a way of tracking down the Gungan location. All of this is behind the story, but maybe it is too much, and the transition in position feels rushed to me as well, just wasn't sure how to adjust it. It is something that can be looked at in a rewrite.

(the exact same problem as the various throne room near-misses with Padme).

Too 'ooh, danger' then 'no, no danger'?

Also, I think they stayed too long on Utapau. The fun thing about the Star Wars movies is a wide variety of settings.

Let's see:

Star Wars - Tatooine, Death Star, Alderaan (only a long shot of the planet), Yavin (barely).
Empire Strikes Back - Hoth, Dagobah, Asteroid Field, Bespin.
Return of the Jedi - Tatooine (again), Dagobah (again), Death Star II (like the first Death Star, just needs a little fixing up), Endor.

So, really the only planet we spend significant time on in the first movie is Tatooine. The second movie actually is very good at showing multiple planets, so full points there. The third movie only shows us one new setting really, Endor.

OTL Episode I - Command Ship (if I am feeling generous), Naboo, Tatooine (yet again), Coruscant

Glen's Episode I - Koensayr Orbital Facility, Coruscant, Utapau

While mine is no Empire Strikes Back in this regard, I think it is reasonable. I might add another setting though, since I think someone has a cool idea for it.

Utapau may be more climatically varied than most other Star Wars planets, but it just doesn't seem right for them to be so planetbound. Even the OTL version had them planet-hopping, even if it was to go back to the well on Tatooine.

See above - and thank you for crediting my Utapau with some diversity!

Which reminds me - I think having Anakin grow up on Tatooine is a mistake, because it creates the same plot hole that was created for the original trilogy IOTL - why wouldn't he ever go back to his home planet, to check on things? Sure he may have wanted to leave his life as Anakin behind or what have you, but wouldn't he want to hunt down Obi-Wan? And that planet is one of the first places I would look (since you seem to indicate that it's his home planet, too).

Yeah. I give a toss-off line as to why Anakin won't go there, and some of the backstory in my head is that once he becomes Vader he is too ashamed to face Beru. Basically Vader wants to pretend that he has no connection to little old Tatooine. That's why they hide in plain sight there - in the end, its weak, because ANY explanation is going to be weak. Retconning Vader to be Anakin as done between Star Wars and Empire makes for retroactive stupidity on the part of those hiding the children from him. Rather than tie myself up in knots over it, I try giving a simple if weak nod as to why and move on.

However, just out of curiosity, why would you remove Anakin growing up there? I would say, if you want to change anything, it would be having Obi-Wan growing up there, since your concern seems to be Vader going there to look for Obi-Wan. If he doesn't know he has children (which is what happens in my later script), then he won't know to go there to look for Luke, but you are right that he might know to go there to look for Kenobi, but then you need to sever the link between Kenobi and Tatooine, not Anakin and Tatooine. That would also make ColeMercury happy since it would make Owen Lars no longer related to Obi-Wan. On the other hand, that then makes it more inexplicable why Owen would blame Obi-Wan for Anakin following him off on some crusade (why would he even think of Obi-Wan as doing so?).

Also, I have to agree with ColeMercury. You're obliged to end the film with a musical montage, free of dialogue. Otherwise you might as well choose not to begin the film with the opening crawl, panning down to a shot of a spaceship. It's just the way that things are done.

Oh, very well. I will work on that....

Like I said, I'm really not a Star Wars fan - especially not of the prequel trilogy. I really don't care about these characters.

Which in a way is good, as a blockbuster should have some appeal to the non-fan audience.

It was a good script, though,

Thanks - this has been a useful exercise as it is the first time that I have ever written a full script, as opposed to regular narrative.

and very much an improvement on the OTL version -

Thank you once again, though the OTL version lowered the bar pretty low!

the story does make sense, the characters have clearer motivations

Good!

(excluding Anakin going "I suddenly want to be a Jedi now"),

I'll work on that.

and (most importantly), there is a stronger overall narrative flow, with a clear protagonist in Anakin.

Good, that is one of the things I was shooting for.

I apologize in advance if I overlooked any key details that explain some of these problems. And I hope this helps

No worries, and thanks for giving me some time and feedback.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by William_Dellinger

I really enjoyed it, Glen.

I am gratified, citizen!

A hundred times better than TPM.

Well, TPM lowered the bar pretty low, but that's like saying it's ten times better than a regular movie, still pretty good praise!

Anakin, I think, needs to a bit more brash. Have something come back to bite him in the ass, maybe during the return to the Gungan city. Maybe he's showing off, maybe he's getting cocky.

Yeah, fair enough - any ideas what?

Obi-Wan uses Padme's name a lot. There was one point where he used it in four consecutive lines. Clean that up a bit.

Yeah, I think I noticed that after writing, too. I will.

And it seems like he answers just about everything (early on, anyway) with "The Force" or some variation. It's not really a nit-pick, just something that rubbed me the wrong way.

I may have laid it on a bit thick - I will recheck that - on the other hand, the Jedi seem to talk about the Force a lot....

Darth Maul is much better in this one,

Thank you!

and I like how there's more than two.

Me too!

In fact, I'd like there to be a Sith Council to mimic the Jedi Council. Just think, when all is revealed to Anakin and he joins the Sith, he is presented to the Sith Council, who are all people he recognizes, telling Anakin (and the viewer) that the Sith threat is much more deeply embedded than thought previously.

This is in fact a really cool idea, though I am not certain how it would fit into the overall Star Wars universe, even discounting anything after the beginning of filming of the first prequel. In the original Star Wars trilogy we have Kenobi, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor as the only Force users left in the Galaxy, it would seem. The Jedi were hunted down and slaughtered, so that part is easy to understand, but if there were enough Sith to form a Sith council, then what happened to them? I'd have to either have them killed off by the Jedi somehow (if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me), or the Emperor and Vader would have to eliminate them as rivals or some such (which seems a bit extreme, even for that motley crew). In a way, the OTL prequels idea of there only being two Sith at any given time plus slaughtering the Jedi takes care of this (though it then makes Vader recruiting his son to kill him to make way as an apprentice (or together kill the Emperor) really messed up). If, on the other hand, there are only very few Sith to begin with in the prequels, and they don't seek to actively recruit thereafter, then that at least makes a sort of sense. To summarize, Sith Council cool, just not certain how to fit it in (not to mention I'd have to find a bunch more folks for the Dark Side).

Padme is coming across as really impulsive. I know she leans on Kenobi for support, and she kisses An on the cheek, so I'm just kind of wondering why? She's a strong, independent, 30 year old Queen, which just doesn't come across as likely. But it still works, just thought I'd mention it.

Yeah - I think she comes across as determined and a fighter, but there is also some impulsivity and insecurity there as well, at least as currently written. It is in part the shock of the last few days, after a grueling siege, but it could be improved - I will look into it.

Jar Jar. Better than the original,

Again thanks, but again, not hard to do.

but still kind of just there.

Says you and Brainbin both!

I like the fact that he throws knives and "always has a spare", but I'd make him more action-oriented, with sarcastic one-liners.

I thought he was pretty actiony, but I can try to punch it up. I will have to re-review his lines - I thought he was sarky, but I will look.

Of course, you could be building him up for a return in Ep II as a guerilla leader.

That will occur, it is true. However, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

The droids and Yoda didn't make an appearance, something that is a little disheartening. Fanboys would crucify you for that.

Yoda was mentioned - he will show up, but I was planning on saving him for the final prequel - we will get all these teasers with the pay-off in the last. I feel like he was overused in the original prequels, made him less special, less Yoda-esque. I could give an early teaser I suppose, but I don't know about that.

As for the droids - I really have problems with their presence in any way in the prequels - it makes no sense to me why they would be around in these prequels with these characters, and NO ONE recognizes them in the original trilogy. They would almost need their own subplot to show up in these - that could be done, however, if felt necessary, but really it would be pure fanservice (as their presence is now).

The plot works,

Good, thanks!

I like that they stay on Utapau longer.

Agreed! See, folks, Utapau is the place to be!!

The only thing I could possibly add to it would be an action scene with Jinn and Kenobi on one of the other worlds the Republic is defending. Anakin gets his fight scene, so why shouldn't they? It'd have to take place right after the space battle, and Jinn could get word that Kenobi is needed for something else.

This actually could work as a stronger introduction to Obi-Wan (and Qui-Gon for that matter). I will seriously consider them having their own intro battle scene.

Really enjoyed it, Glen.

Thanks! It was a lot of work, so I need that!!

Now, where's Episode II?

Actually, that is a very good point - writing one prequel script has taken a long time, and I have had to go out of my way to solicit feedback for it at that (of course, I asked the best). I am seriously considering only doing expanded script treatments for Episode II and III, unless there is a strong indication that people want to see full scripts. I am thinking of putting up a poll about how to proceed.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Mefisto

I'm enjoing this fanfiction too.

Thank you very much, Mefisto! Welcome to the party!!

Anakin here has a character and I can see how he become a sith. He is a warrior - an Ace fighter - which means an Ace killing machine. Obi Wan Kenobi makes him realize that it is Force which makes him so good pilot and fighter and it is natural for him to seek for even more strength. What he wants is to be trained in Force nad being a Jedi is only a collateral effect for him. This is what Obi Wan fails to see. Maybe Joda would imprint some ethic into young warrior but the current Council only see the need to replenish their forces with somebody strong and ready to use now, as they are really thinly spread. This is why Anakin is going to be so easily manipulated into Dark Side of Force. In certain sense he is already too old for training - because he can question certain things he is forced to learn and ha can acquire only skill and knowledge he finds useful.

I think this whole paragraph is breath-takingly good and I will try to emphasize these points in future drafts.

I could see also Padme Amidala as a queen who is bored to death with court life and at the same time impatient and who hates to feel helpless. This is why she is enjoing this little adventure. Besides who knows, maybe She already had some adventurous lovers and would fancy to play with some new toy-soldiers (or toy Jedis)?

Yeah, not as certain about Padme - actually that may be part of the problem as to how she is coming out in the script - I need to work a bit more on her internal life and feelings. While she once may have been bored of court life, I could hardly say that with a full invasion in place (though she definitely IS chaffing at being only on the defense and not being able to take the fight to the Sith - ergo one of the reasons for her need to help the raid on the Clone Factory).

I have also a loose idea: when Jar Jar's stolen electronic parts land in the swamp, why not make some creature catch and tear the wrapping, destroing the electronic inside? The bag would be waterproof but not teeth- and claws- proof.

This is an excellent idea! I will add that in when I get a chance. Maybe I should have the sharp toothed creature that does the tearing called a mefisto?

[Mefisto]

I'm glad you found it useful. About this swamp creature: I would rather call it "Amba". Why? In Polish military when something is lost or gets stolen they say "Amba took it" or "Amba ate it". Who knows how many blasters, boots and small parts of equipment the Clone patrols lost to ever hungry swamp Ambas?

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Mefisto

I'm glad you found it useful. About this swamp creature: I would rather call it "Amba". Why? In Polish military when something is lost or gets stolen they say "Amba took it" or "Amba ate it". Who knows how many blasters, boots and small parts of equipment the Clone patrols lost to ever hungry swamp Ambas?

I like it! Amba it is then.

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by Glen

I appreciate having a different perspective, though, and in someone with a good knowledge of general pop culture.

Well, I do appreciate that, thank you.

Originally Posted by Glen

It felt very similar to me to the scenes in the original Star Wars when Obi-Wan is speaking to Luke in his home and again on the Millenium Falcon while they are in transit. I will look back over it though to see if some polishing can be done.

There was more action in the first Star Wars film to that point, though. The infodump happened near the end of the first act; you have it happening near the beginning.

Originally Posted by Glen

Remind me again what Chewie actually does in the original Star Wars? He's a sidekick, a cool sounding and looking one, but he doesn't really do anything that another character couldn't or wouldn't.

Fair enough, but Han repeatedly proved himself useful. And Chewie was, at the very least, an extra pair of hands who never proved a detriment to their plans. (Plus he didn't talk, which made it much harder for him to annoy people.) Simply put, Chewie is likeable, and Jar-Jar isn't.

Originally Posted by Glen

Actually, I was going for a bit of irony there - they arrive just after the nick of time! It was only Amidala's decoy precautions that save her the first time.

You are correct - I didn't phrase that properly. I think that leaving it on its own is even stronger, narratively speaking, for that very reason. She's not some helpless damsel-in-distress; she's got a plan and can fly by the seat of her pants (again, very reminiscent of her daughter). And she'll still need their help to escape the city anyway.

Originally Posted by Glen

I suppose I could, though then there's no 'fail to save' then 'save' whiplash which I kind of like - either they fail to save during the attempt but it doesn't matter or they succeed, and the decoy doesn't matter.

The "whiplash" is something that looks good on paper but might fall flat in execution - think horror movies and their overuse of "boo" moments.

Originally Posted by Glen

Too 'ooh, danger' then 'no, no danger'?

Precisely. See directly above.

Originally Posted by Glen

OTL Episode I - Command Ship (if I am feeling generous), Naboo, Tatooine (yet again), Coruscant

Glen's Episode I - Koensayr Orbital Facility, Coruscant, Utapau

While mine is no Empire Strikes Back in this regard, I think it is reasonable. I might add another setting though, since I think someone has a cool idea for it.

Why wouldn't you want to follow Empire's lead on this one? This is the Galactic Republic at its height - there are thousands of member worlds. I would definitely suggest that you add another setting. You're about even with TPM as it stands, which is never a good thing.

Originally Posted by Glen

However, just out of curiosity, why would you remove Anakin growing up there? I would say, if you want to change anything, it would be having Obi-Wan growing up there, since your concern seems to be Vader going there to look for Obi-Wan. If he doesn't know he has children (which is what happens in my later script), then he won't know to go there to look for Luke, but you are right that he might know to go there to look for Kenobi, but then you need to sever the link between Kenobi and Tatooine, not Anakin and Tatooine. That would also make ColeMercury happy since it would make Owen Lars no longer related to Obi-Wan. On the other hand, that then makes it more inexplicable why Owen would blame Obi-Wan for Anakin following him off on some crusade (why would he even think of Obi-Wan as doing so?).

If you insist on keeping Anakin a native of Tatooine, that's fine (the only reason I don't like it is, again, for reasons of diversity in setting). But you absolutely have to remove Obi-Wan being a native of Tatooine, for the already-mentioned reasons. With regards to Owen? It's very simple. Have him think what I'm thinking. Anakin was doing just fine as a fighter pilot, and then suddenly some Jedi comes along and creates the man who will become the Emperor's right hand. Plus Owen and Beru are now burdened with his son, who is showing all the same tendencies as his father. That's somewhat subtle for Jorge, but you are writing a better prequel trilogy, are you not?

Originally Posted by Glen

I'll work on that.

If you work on nothing else, work on that. The Prequel Trilogy is intended as a character study of Anakin. It needs to ring as true as possible.

Originally Posted by Glen

No worries, and thanks for giving me some time and feedback.

Just as long as you save your special requests for crucial milestones

[vultan]

Ok, Glen, seeing as people far more creatively qualified than me are commenting on the plot, I may as well give my two-cents where I'm somewhat knowledgable: the movie magic! (particularly creature effects). I'll focus on how it regards The Phantom Menace, but I'll touch on your scenario's version of the prequel trilogy as a whole.

So we've settled on Peter Jackson for TPM. From a production standpoint, he's perfect. Like the LOTR trilogy, he'll focus on making sure his version of the Star Wars galaxy is very visually gritty and realistic (in the Stat Wars original trilogy "used future" sense of the term, not in the way the term has been misappropriated in pop culture today- for example, the infamous "gritty reboot"). He may very well try out the production techniques meant for the LOTR trilogy on this movie. I could imagine many of the locales would be portrayed by his signature massive miniature sets that were in OTL (and more than likely ITTL) used to portray the cities and landscapes of Middle Earth. In fact, I'd imagine it's possible that in this timeline he uses the same principle to portray the larger spaceships ultra-detailed miniature models (which Lucas could feel free to have digitally augmented).

Creature effects are also important. While I personally believe that practical effects are almost always more useful in making movie monsters, Jackson and his folks at Weta Digital have shown that when CGI creatures work, they can really work. Of course, he'd still probably rely more on standard makeup, prosthetics, and puppetry than Lucas did historically with the prequels. With Tim Roth portraying Jar Jar here, I have to ask: is he merely doing the voice work, or will he actually portray the character in motion capture?

(Jar Jar was pretty crucial in solidifying digital characters as a practical concept in real life, so it's a shame that first impression was wasted on such an inane character. If he's better received on this scenario, I'd imagine that it would be possible that Andy Serkis gets a Best Supporting Actor nod for his work on Return of the King.)

I must ask: will Jackson get his friends at Weta Workshop and Digital to work on this movie? Yes, ILM is going to be doing the bulk if the work here, and Weta may be too busy working on preproduction for LOTR while Jackson's away working on Star Wars, but I'd imagine it's possible that they could send some people to work on the practical effects (alien makeup, armor, etc).

With Spielberg working on the next one, I must ask: does he insist that Lucas get Stan Winston involved? That could be very fun.

And of course, it's a foregone conclusion that John Williams is doing the score, right?

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Well, I do appreciate that, thank you.

No, thank you!

There was more action in the first Star Wars film to that point, though. The infodump happened near the end of the first act; you have it happening near the beginning.

Both start with action. True the droids are captured by Jawas and Luke is attacked by Tuskans, but that isn't much. I could add one more action scene introducing Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon (and that on another planet) and/or push their discussion later (in the swamp).

Fair enough, but Han repeatedly proved himself useful. And Chewie was, at the very least, an extra pair of hands who never proved a detriment to their plans. (Plus he didn't talk, which made it much harder for him to annoy people.) Simply put, Chewie is likeable, and Jar-Jar isn't.

I think this Jar-Jar is likeable and useful - hell he stays behind covering their retreat!

You are correct - I didn't phrase that properly. I think that leaving it on its own is even stronger, narratively speaking, for that very reason. She's not some helpless damsel-in-distress; she's got a plan and can fly by the seat of her pants (again, very reminiscent of her daughter). And she'll still need their help to escape the city anyway.

I will think about it.

The "whiplash" is something that looks good on paper but might fall flat in execution - think horror movies and their overuse of "boo" moments.

It's a fair point. I will consider it.

Precisely. See directly above.

Why wouldn't you want to follow Empire's lead on this one? This is the Galactic Republic at its height - there are thousands of member worlds. I would definitely suggest that you add another setting. You're about even with TPM as it stands, which is never a good thing.

So how many more and why,o you think?

If you insist on keeping Anakin a native of Tatooine, that's fine (the only reason I don't like it is, again, for reasons of diversity in setting). But you absolutely have to remove Obi-Wan being a native of Tatooine, for the already-mentioned reasons. With regards to Owen? It's very simple. Have him think what I'm thinking. Anakin was doing just fine as a fighter pilot, and then suddenly some Jedi comes along and creates the man who will become the Emperor's right hand. Plus Owen and Beru are now burdened with his son, who is showing all the same tendencies as his father.

While I agree with you in real life, in-universe continuity would tend to indicate otherwise. I am going to err on the side of maintaining continuity for now but I will think about it at least.

That's somewhat subtle for Jorge, but you are writing a better prequel trilogy, are you not?

Better yes, but I can only go so far and still have it be Star Wars.

If you work on nothing else, work on that. The Prequel Trilogy is intended as a character study of Anakin. It needs to ring as true as possible.

That makes sense.

Just as long as you save your special requests for crucial milestones

I will try not to be a pest.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by vultan

Ok, Glen, seeing as people far more creatively qualified than me are commenting on the plot,

On the other hand, if something is particularly striking you, good or bad, please let me know.

I may as well give my two-cents where I'm somewhat knowledgable: the movie magic! (particularly creature effects). I'll focus on how it regards The Phantom Menace, but I'll touch on your scenario's version of the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Appreciated.

So we've settled on Peter Jackson for TPM.

I don't know that anything is really settled-settled other than Ledger and Oldman, but yeah, pretty much - let us proceed with that as our working theory.

From a production standpoint, he's perfect. Like the LOTR trilogy, he'll focus on making sure his version of the Star Wars galaxy is very visually gritty and realistic (in the Stat Wars original trilogy "used future" sense of the term, not in the way the term has been misappropriated in pop culture today- for example, the infamous "gritty reboot"). He may very well try out the production techniques meant for the LOTR trilogy on this movie. I could imagine many of the locales would be portrayed by his signature massive miniature sets that were in OTL (and more than likely ITTL) used to portray the cities and landscapes of Middle Earth. In fact, I'd imagine it's possible that in this timeline he uses the same principle to portray the larger spaceships ultra-detailed miniature models (which Lucas could feel free to have digitally augmented).

Interesting thought - Do you think Lucas would let him get away with that much miniature work?

Creature effects are also important. While I personally believe that practical effects are almost always more useful in making movie monsters, Jackson and his folks at Weta Digital have shown that when CGI creatures work, they can really work. Of course, he'd still probably rely more on standard makeup, prosthetics, and puppetry than Lucas did historically with the prequels. With Tim Roth portraying Jar Jar here, I have to ask: is he merely doing the voice work, or will he actually portray the character in motion capture?

My plan was for Tim Roth to portray both.

(Jar Jar was pretty crucial in solidifying digital characters as a practical concept in real life, so it's a shame that first impression was wasted on such an inane character. If he's better received on this scenario, I'd imagine that it would be possible that Andy Serkis gets a Best Supporting Actor nod for his work on Return of the King.)

That's an interesting thought. Jar-Jar will DEFINITELY be better received ITTL than OTL (of course, that isn't really saying much).

I must ask: will Jackson get his friends at Weta Workshop and Digital to work on this movie? Yes, ILM is going to be doing the bulk if the work here, and Weta may be too busy working on preproduction for LOTR while Jackson's away working on Star Wars, but I'd imagine it's possible that they could send some people to work on the practical effects (alien makeup, armor, etc).

I am open to the possibility, but that will need some further research and development - let me ask everyone, what would be the most logical division of labor between ILM and Weta?

With Spielberg working on the next one, I must ask: does he insist that Lucas get Stan Winston involved? That could be very fun.

I think it is possible that he brings him in to collaborate, unless people know of a reason why that wouldn't work.

And of course, it's a foregone conclusion that John Williams is doing the score, right?

Yes, that much is a given.

[vultan]

Originally Posted by Glen

On the other hand, if something is particularly striking you, good or bad, please let me know.

I'll look it over again a little later and see if I can spot anything.

Appreciated.

Thanks!

Interesting thought - Do you think Lucas would let him get away with that much miniature work?

A good question. While Lucas' love of CGI on recent years is well noted, I see no reason why he'd kibosh Jackson's ideas there, especially if Jackson convinces him it's more cost-effective. Still, I'd imagine the amount of CGI would increase with each successive movie.

My plan was for Tim Roth to portray both.

Cool. I wonder- perhaps Lucas decides to go all-out and make Darth Maul a CGI character as well? Benicio del Toro could still do the voice work and motion capture? I know that Lucas originally intended for more characters to be computer generated in the movie than what actually panned out (the Neimodians, for example). With more of the scenery being done with practical effects here, Lucas may decide to show off the CGI in other ways. Thus, two of the movie's main characters, one a good guy and the other a bad guy, would be made to fit that bill, and both of them are being portrayed by prominent actors to boot. And with Jackson, you have one of the few directors who can pull off digital characters well.

(BTW, I loved the idea someone suggested for a Sith Council. Lots of potential to have nasty little alien creatures realized by puppetry and such. Bonus points if the Yaddle equivalent in this movie- the only other alien in the series who is the same race as Yoda, for those who don't know- is a member of the Sith Council!)

That's an interesting thought. Jar-Jar will DEFINITELY be better received ITTL than OTL (of course, that isn't really saying much).

It could very well lead to Serkis getting his much-deserved Oscar nod for Gollum.

I am open to the possibility, but that will need some further research and development - let me ask everyone, what would be the most logical division of labor between ILM and Weta?

Like I said, Weta would probably just do thesis incidental practical effects- body armor, weapons, some background aliens, etc.

I think it is possible that he brings him in to collaborate, unless people know of a reason why that wouldn't work.

I really can't think of any reason why not!

Yes, that much is a given.

Good!

Incidentally, who were you thinking of to portray the clones? It'd have to be somebody capable of playing all sorts of different characters, of different ages (via makeup), over several movies.

I nominate Christopher Ecclestion, Robert Carlyle, or Sean Bean.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by vultan

I'll look it over again a little later and see if I can spot anything.

Great!

Thanks!

And again, thank you!

A good question. While Lucas' love of CGI on recent years is well noted, I see no reason why he'd kibosh Jackson's ideas there, especially if Jackson convinces him it's more cost-effective. Still, I'd imagine the amount of CGI would increase with each successive movie.

Good thought, and yes, I imagine it would.

Cool. I wonder- perhaps Lucas decides to go all-out and make Darth Maul a CGI character as well? Benicio del Toro could still do the voice work and motion capture?

Maybe - I've always felt that Darth Maul's face was good conceptually, but looked too much like makeup in actuality - maybe CGI overlay could fix some of that.

I know that Lucas originally intended for more characters to be computer generated in the movie than what actually panned out (the Neimodians, for example).

Actually I think the underwater scenes would best work through CGI - and the Neimoidian Frogmen Clones when they are swimming in would be great for that. Might then have regular effects for when they are fighting in atmosphere in the streets.

With more of the scenery being done with practical effects here, Lucas may decide to show off the CGI in other ways. Thus, two of the movie's main characters, one a good guy and the other a bad guy, would be made to fit that bill, and both of them are being portrayed by prominent actors to boot. And with Jackson, you have one of the few directors who can pull off digital characters well.

An interesting point.

(BTW, I loved the idea someone suggested for a Sith Council. Lots of potential to have nasty little alien creatures realized by puppetry and such. Bonus points if the Yaddle equivalent in this movie- the only other alien in the series who is the same race as Yoda, for those who don't know- is a member of the Sith Council!)

It is a cool idea in theory, but I just am not certain I could fit it in in a viable way into the Star Wars prequels.

It could very well lead to Serkis getting his much-deserved Oscar nod for Gollum.

Maybe we'll have to add that as one of the knock off effects ITTL.

Like I said, Weta would probably just do thesis incidental practical effects- body armor, weapons, some background aliens, etc.

That would be good - one thing I decided didn't work as well was all the CGI clone troopers in armor - I think that would be better at least in the foreground as actual extras in armor.

I really can't think of any reason why not!

Then I could see him doing so.

Good!

Yeah, wouldn't mess with that.

Incidentally, who were you thinking of to portray the clones? It'd have to be somebody capable of playing all sorts of different characters, of different ages (via makeup), over several movies.

Well the Clone Masters themselves will be portrayed by Billie Dee Williams.

I was thinking that most of the time the clones will be in full armor, so it is less of an issue, but I might need to think of a few good actors for some face cameos.

I nominate Christopher Ecclestion, Robert Carlyle, or Sean Bean.

That might be a bit of overkill! Of those suggestions, Bean would make the best clone template IMO.

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by Glen

Both start with action. True the droids are captured by Jawas and Luke is attacked by Tuskans, but that isn't much. I could add one more action scene introducing Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon (and that on another planet) and/or push their discussion later (in the swamp).

Let's say three action scenes for the original movie (the entire sequence of the stormtroopers boarding the rebel transport; C-3PO and R2-D2 captured by the Jawas; and then Obi-Wan appearing and rescuing Luke and the Droids), in contrast to your one action scene. My point is, basically, the way the original film was edited allows us to get a feel for the universe without them beating us over the head with exposition. When the exposition comes, we welcome it, because it answers any questions we might have formed.

Originally Posted by Glen

So how many more and why,o you think?

One or two more should be fine. And, again, this is the Galactic Republic at its height. There are lots of member worlds.

Originally Posted by vultan

It could very well lead to Serkis getting his much-deserved Oscar nod for Gollum.

I wouldn't count on it. The Academy has a profound bias against anything but live-action. When Beauty and the Beast was nominated for Best Picture, everyone was making fun of a "cartoon" being eligible for the award at the ceremony itself! And note that no film since received a Best Picture nomination - not Aladdin, The Lion King, or any Pixar film, including WALL-E - until the number of nominees was widened to 10. Note also that Frank Oz was not nominated for Empire, despite Lucasfilm pushing hard for it; note that Robin Williams was not nominated for Aladdin, despite widespread agreement that he deserved one. Note that, IOTL, Serkis was not nominated for either of his Lord of the Rings appearances (nor was anyone, save McKellen in the first film), nor has anyone been nominated for a motion-capture performance since, not even for Avatar.

The Academy doesn't seem likely to get over their refusal to recognize acting in any field other than live performance. Sad, but true.

[William_Dellinger]

Originally Posted by Glen

Yeah, fair enough - any ideas what?

I was thinking, either on the return to the city, he tries to pull off some reckless manuever and bounces off a rock, springing a leak, or maybe he tries to jump in and fight the clones off. Just leaping before he looks, so to speak. Give Obi-Wan a chance to save his ass, just to prove that immense potential can't compare to experience and wisdom, further adding to An's frustrations as a Padawan.

Originally Posted by Glen

I may have laid it on a bit thick - I will recheck that - on the other hand, the Jedi seem to talk about the Force a lot....

Yeah, but it comes off as "God's will" and "God did it". The spirit of the answer is fine, but I'd expect a bit philosophicalizing from Obi-Wan.

Originally Posted by Glen

This is in fact a really cool idea,

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Glen

though I am not certain how it would fit into the overall Star Wars universe, even discounting anything after the beginning of filming of the first prequel. In the original Star Wars trilogy we have Kenobi, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor as the only Force users left in the Galaxy, it would seem. The Jedi were hunted down and slaughtered, so that part is easy to understand, but if there were enough Sith to form a Sith council, then what happened to them?

They'd obviously have to be killed before the events in ANH, and having it in that ~20 year time frame between III and IV would just be too obvious of a handwave. You could have a climatic battle between the remaining Jedi and the Sith, which the Jedi are winning, but then the Emperor and Vader show up, use some Force-weapon of mass destruction and kill everything on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by Glen

I'd have to either have them killed off by the Jedi somehow (if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me), or the Emperor and Vader would have to eliminate them as rivals or some such (which seems a bit extreme, even for that motley crew).

That could also be a nice end scene (before Vader's robotization) for III, almost like the scene from Godfather I, where everybody gets assassinated. Vader could be the assassin, solidifying the Emperor's power.

Originally Posted by Glen

In a way, the OTL prequels idea of there only being two Sith at any given time plus slaughtering the Jedi takes care of this (though it then makes Vader recruiting his son to kill him to make way as an apprentice (or together kill the Emperor) really messed up). If, on the other hand, there are only very few Sith to begin with in the prequels, and they don't seek to actively recruit thereafter, then that at least makes a sort of sense. To summarize, Sith Council cool, just not certain how to fit it in (not to mention I'd have to find a bunch more folks for the Dark Side).

See, that's the beauty of it. Have a few people that are minor Jedi thoughout the prequels actually be Sith. They don't have to be named characters, but imagine being brought to the Sith Council, only to find figures that you recognize from training sessions or just every day life sitting in the chairs.

Originally Posted by Glen

I thought he was pretty actiony, but I can try to punch it up. I will have to re-review his lines - I thought he was sarky, but I will look.

There were a few lines, true, but he's the humor of the show. He should have the very best lines.

Originally Posted by Glen

Yoda was mentioned - he will show up, but I was planning on saving him for the final prequel - we will get all these teasers with the pay-off in the last. I feel like he was overused in the original prequels, made him less special, less Yoda-esque. I could give an early teaser I suppose, but I don't know about that.

I can imagine a scene with two figures silhouetted against a setting sun discussing An's training at the end of Episode II. One's a tall human, probably Qui-Gon, the other's a short figure, probably Yoda. You can't see their faces, but you can hear their voices, as they worry about the future.

Originally Posted by Glen

As for the droids - I really have problems with their presence in any way in the prequels - it makes no sense to me why they would be around in these prequels with these characters, and NO ONE recognizes them in the original trilogy. They would almost need their own subplot to show up in these - that could be done, however, if felt necessary, but really it would be pure fanservice (as their presence is now).

Oh, I agree. But I'd throw them in, maybe just as pieces on a wall or something, just to have it carry over.

Originally Posted by Glen

This actually could work as a stronger introduction to Obi-Wan (and Qui-Gon for that matter). I will seriously consider them having their own intro battle scene.

Yeah, Kenobi makes mention of there being many worlds where the Jedi fight, in response to why they haven't sent a larger force to assist the Naboo. I was thinking some big lightsaber fight with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fighting back to back on one of those worlds, before Qui-Gon gets a call that Obi-Wan is needed for the mission to Utapau.

Originally Posted by Glen

Actually, that is a very good point - writing one prequel script has taken a long time, and I have had to go out of my way to solicit feedback for it at that (of course, I asked the best). I am seriously considering only doing expanded script treatments for Episode II and III, unless there is a strong indication that people want to see full scripts. I am thinking of putting up a poll about how to proceed.

Well, I'm sure you know what I'd vote for.


Off topic, but could you put together a PM for me detailing how you think Charlemagne and Elizabeth should be portrayed in FATM and how they would react to different things? I'd really appreciate it.

[vultan]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I wouldn't count on it. The Academy has a profound bias against anything but live-action. When Beauty and the Beast was nominated for Best Picture, everyone was making fun of a "cartoon" being eligible for the award at the ceremony itself! And note that no film since received a Best Picture nomination - not Aladdin, The Lion King, or any Pixar film, including WALL-E - until the number of nominees was widened to 10. Note also that Frank Oz was not nominated for Empire, despite Lucasfilm pushing hard for it; note that Robin Williams was not nominated for Aladdin, despite widespread agreement that he deserved one. Note that, IOTL, Serkis was not nominated for either of his Lord of the Rings appearances (nor was anyone, save McKellen in the first film), nor has anyone been nominated for a motion-capture performance since, not even for Avatar.

The Academy doesn't seem likely to get over their refusal to recognize acting in any field other than live performance. Sad, but true.

Ah, but this is where you get creative. If you get a backlash against a previous decision the Academy made, they'll accomodate new ideas in some way.

For instance, let's say in this version of The Phantom Menace, Tim Roth and/or Benicio del Toro (assuming Glen agrees with me that Maul could be done via motion capture) give exceptional performances. So exceptional, in fact, that many critics are calling for an Oscar nod for at least one of them. However, when the nominees are announced, neither of them are honored. Fan and critical reaction to this is extremely negative. The Internet goes crazy, and lots of angry letters are sent.

Seeing this negative reaction, the Academy decides to make up for their mistake here by keeping themselves open to another motion capture performance to nominate. Enter Andy Serkis' portrayal if Gollum...

[Isaacmj]

Hi Glen! I've recently joined this forum so I can help with the development of this project. I find this project really fascinating and your script for episode 1 is really impressive! If youll let me I would love to help you out . I have one question though, what will the cones armor look like? Obviously it cant look to much like the storm trooper armor otherwise it might cause confusion. I would suggest a very distinctive armor perhaps similar to the mandolorian armor. Heck maybe make boba fett one of the last survivors of the clone army!

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by vultan

Ah, but this is where you get creative. If you get a backlash against a previous decision the Academy made, they'll accomodate new ideas in some way.

For instance, let's say in this version of The Phantom Menace, Tim Roth and/or Benicio del Toro (assuming Glen agrees with me that Maul could be done via motion capture) give exceptional performances. So exceptional, in fact, that many critics are calling for an Oscar nod for at least one of them. However, when the nominees are announced, neither of them are honored. Fan and critical reaction to this is extremely negative. The Internet goes crazy, and lots of angry letters are sent.

Seeing this negative reaction, the Academy decides to make up for their mistake here by keeping themselves open to another motion capture performance to nominate. Enter Andy Serkis' portrayal if Gollum...

The problem is, the Academy tends to be very narrowminded in a lot of ways - and sadly, this tendency is crystallizing over time. The definition of what kind of movie and what kinds of performances are "Oscar-worthy" is becoming ever more precise. I'm frankly amazed that Beauty and the Beast snuck into the Top Five (though, looking at its fellow nominees, it seems that it was fortunate enough to have relatively lackluster competition - anyone remember Bugsy?), and note that this was never repeated afterward (to the point that Best Animated Feature was implicitly created as a release valve to prevent it). Then, in the wake of the cumulative The Dark Knight and Wall-E fiasco, the Academy widens the field of nominees to 10, and that alone allows them in. With actors, I honestly believe that many Academy members, particularly older ones (and remember that the plurality of them are actors), seem unable to comprehend of non-traditional acting as legitimate. Consider voice actors, whose parts are routinely stolen from them by "celebrities" who are often sub-par, at best. Many of them have vocally (har, har) complained about it, but that hasn't stopped the studios (even vaunted Pixar). There's a real sense of illegitimacy, I find; the same that prevents video games from being recognized as art. This is something that's going to take a long time to change.

As far as internet backlash? In 1999-2000, while it was on the rise with the general population, the internet still had a long way to go (dial-up was the primary method of connection, no streaming video, hi-fi, or HD, etc.) The Academy certainly won't care what these people think of them.

Originally Posted by Isaacmj

Hi Glen! I've recently joined this forum so I can help with the development of this project. I find this project really fascinating and your script for episode 1 is really impressive! If youll let me I would love to help you out . I have one question though, what will the cones armor look like? Obviously it cant look to much like the storm trooper armor otherwise it might cause confusion. I would suggest a very distinctive armor perhaps similar to the mandolorian armor. Heck maybe make boba fett one of the last survivors of the clone army!

Welcome to the forums, Isaac!

[Isaacmj]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Welcome to the forums, Isaac!

Thank you I'm glad to be here

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Let's say three action scenes for the original movie (the entire sequence of the stormtroopers boarding the rebel transport; C-3PO and R2-D2 captured by the Jawas; and then Obi-Wan appearing and rescuing Luke and the Droids), in contrast to your one action scene. My point is, basically, the way the original film was edited allows us to get a feel for the universe without them beating us over the head with exposition. When the exposition comes, we welcome it, because it answers any questions we might have formed.

<sigh> It's a fair point. I will see what I can do.

One or two more should be fine. And, again, this is the Galactic Republic at its height. There are lots of member worlds.

Oh, theoretically that is absolutely correct, and not a problem - however, I have to figure out which member world Lucas and his ATL collaborators would think to place in this alternate prequel now!

I wouldn't count on it. The Academy has a profound bias against anything but live-action. When Beauty and the Beast was nominated for Best Picture, everyone was making fun of a "cartoon" being eligible for the award at the ceremony itself! And note that no film since received a Best Picture nomination - not Aladdin, The Lion King, or any Pixar film, including WALL-E - until the number of nominees was widened to 10. Note also that Frank Oz was not nominated for Empire, despite Lucasfilm pushing hard for it; note that Robin Williams was not nominated for Aladdin, despite widespread agreement that he deserved one. Note that, IOTL, Serkis was not nominated for either of his Lord of the Rings appearances (nor was anyone, save McKellen in the first film), nor has anyone been nominated for a motion-capture performance since, not even for Avatar.

The Academy doesn't seem likely to get over their refusal to recognize acting in any field other than live performance. Sad, but true.

It's a fair point - I shall discuss more in my response to this response by others.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by William_Dellinger

I was thinking, either on the return to the city, he tries to pull off some reckless manuever and bounces off a rock, springing a leak, or maybe he tries to jump in and fight the clones off. Just leaping before he looks, so to speak. Give Obi-Wan a chance to save his ass, just to prove that immense potential can't compare to experience and wisdom, further adding to An's frustrations as a Padawan.

Maybe, maybe.

Yeah, but it comes off as "God's will" and "God did it". The spirit of the answer is fine, but I'd expect a bit philosophicalizing from Obi-Wan.

I see. That makes a sort of sense - I counted references in the scripts, and for most of Star Wars they tend to run to about 20 references to the Force, plus or minus. Mine has about double that (ouch), so there will need to be a culling.

They'd obviously have to be killed before the events in ANH, and having it in that ~20 year time frame between III and IV would just be too obvious of a handwave. You could have a climatic battle between the remaining Jedi and the Sith, which the Jedi are winning, but then the Emperor and Vader show up, use some Force-weapon of mass destruction and kill everything on the battlefield.

Talk about a handwave! Actually, this would have been a good addition for the first prequel. But it would be cool. I shall think upon it.

That could also be a nice end scene (before Vader's robotization) for III,

That happens earlier in my prequels.

almost like the scene from Godfather I, where everybody gets assassinated.

You do realize that is basically what they did at the end of OTL's Episode III, right (Jedis, Separatist leaders).

Vader could be the assassin, solidifying the Emperor's power.

Yes, that's true. Don't know if I'm going to use the Sith Council idea, and if I do, whether we'll eliminate them through Ragnorak or Vader, Assassin of the Godfather Emperor.

See, that's the beauty of it. Have a few people that are minor Jedi thoughout the prequels actually be Sith. They don't have to be named characters, but imagine being brought to the Sith Council, only to find figures that you recognize from training sessions or just every day life sitting in the chairs.

Familiar faces turning out the be Sith Lords would be a bit of a turn, wouldn't it? This is definitely a cool idea - just don't know if it is the right one for my prequels.

There were a few lines, true, but he's the humor of the show. He should have the very best lines.

Such as?

I can imagine a scene with two figures silhouetted against a setting sun discussing An's training at the end of Episode II. One's a tall human, probably Qui-Gon, the other's a short figure, probably Yoda. You can't see their faces, but you can hear their voices, as they worry about the future.

It would be my Episode I, actually.

Oh, I agree. But I'd throw them in, maybe just as pieces on a wall or something, just to have it carry over.

I may have to come up with something more substantial for the droids (at the very least for R2D2). My middle daughter turns out to really have enjoyed them in the OTL prequels (which we all just watched together), and my wife was a little dismayed to learn that the droids were not planned to make an appearance. So now I may have to find a way to fit them in.

Yeah, Kenobi makes mention of there being many worlds where the Jedi fight, in response to why they haven't sent a larger force to assist the Naboo. I was thinking some big lightsaber fight with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fighting back to back on one of those worlds, before Qui-Gon gets a call that Obi-Wan is needed for the mission to Utapau.

Yeah, something like that could work.

Well, I'm sure you know what I'd vote for.

More scripts I assume? If you want that, you're going to have to pony up more regular comments (even if it just 'keep going, great stuff'!).

Off topic, but could you put together a PM for me detailing how you think Charlemagne and Elizabeth should be portrayed in FATM and how they would react to different things? I'd really appreciate it.

Yep, no problemo, amigo!

[Isaacmj]

Originally Posted by Glen

Yes, that's true. Don't know if I'm going to use the Sith Council idea, and if I do, whether we'll eliminate them through Ragnorak or Vader, Assassin of the Godfather Emperor.

I think this is a great idea ! Hey in your very first post didn't you mention a montage of Vader hunting down the Jedi in episode 3(which should be done to the imperial march by the way ) you could also have vader annihilating the sith council in this montage or a second montage.

Originally Posted by Glen

I may have to come up with something more substantial for the droids (at the very least for R2D2). My middle daughter turns out to really have enjoyed them in the OTL prequels (which we all just watched together), and my wife was a little dismayed to learn that the droids were not planned to make an appearance. So now I may have to find a way to fit them in

R2-D2 is easy enough just make him the astromech droid on Anakins ship. As for C3-P0 he could be Padme's protocol droid as im sure a queen would need such a droid to communicate with other planet leaders and the like. Maybe the Gungans have their own language and so when Jar-Jar is knocked unconscious threepio is needed to translate when they arrive in the Gungan city a second time.