Kniughts Templar

[Airship_pirate1901]

What if instead of the Templar being broken by Philip the fair,there intel got word of the plan to seize there wealth and opted to form there own country in the south of France and could it have survived and if so how?

[eliphas8]

Probably not, if they even managed to gather together (their lands extended all Over europe and where barely ever continuous) it would essentially be them versus all of their neighbors and that likely will just result in them getting slaughtered by force of numbers.

[Airship_pirate1901]

Yes i agree but is there any way they can survive as an independent organization with there military intact or is this ASB? I'm asking because the Templars are one of my favorite groups from the Middle Ages.

[CP11]

One possibility may be Cyprus which the Templars owned for a while, maybe if they sell off some of their land and invest heavily they could establish themselves there but their survival is highly unlikely.

[Elfwine]

Why is their survival less likely than that of the Hospitalers?

Although I think the "south of France" thing isn't going to fly - the Templar properties don't really support an independent order state on land that the King of France controls better than they do.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by CP11

One possibility may be Cyprus which the Templars owned for a while, maybe if they sell off some of their land and invest heavily they could establish themselves there but their survival is highly unlikely.

Cyprus is probably the most reasonable place where you would see a Templar-ruled state but in OTL, the Templars barely had twenty knights stationed in the entire island before pawning it off to the Crusaders.

[Airship_pirate1901]

Are there an TL's where they survive? And anyone have a way for them to survive intact?

[Fox Eating Bamboo]

The Knights Hospitaller and Teutonic Order both survived as forces to be reckoned with until the 1500's and as more minor powers for many more years. I'd say use them as a model. One thing to note is that both of those two orders owned territory on the edges of Christendom - the Teutonic Knights in the Baltic and the Hospitaller in the Mediterranean near the Holy Land (Cyprus, Rhodes, Malta).

The best way to have the Templar survive is for Philip the Fair to not carry out his operation. Because he doesn't feel like it. Perhaps the TP is before then, though.

I think an interesting scenario would be for the Knights Templar to become more involved in Iberia and the Reconquista after being driven out of the Holy Land. I choose Iberia because it's the borderlands that aren't taken yet by other knights. Maybe the TP is them being asked to help after a major defeat of some Christian state by the Almohads or Grenada? Perhaps they could survive long enough to be heavily involved in the conquests and conversions of the New World, or try to mimic the Iberian Reconquista in Northern Africa.

Still, with the world changing so much at the time of the Renaissance and Reformation, the Templar will have to evolve in that time or become a relic. And they can't become powerful enough to make any strong monarch feel threatened. I think it's not unlikely for them to become a more peaceful and scholarly religious order in future centuries.

[von Adler]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Why is their survival less likely than that of the Hospitalers?

Although I think the "south of France" thing isn't going to fly - the Templar properties don't really support an independent order state on land that the King of France controls better than they do.

Becuase the Hospitallers continued to enjoy papal support and thus were not attacked. The orders did not control specific land in Europe (the Hospitallers got Rhodes and then Malta) to form their own stare, and were thus very vurnurable to an attack such as the one they suffered.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by von Adler

Becuase the Hospitallers continued to enjoy papal support and thus were not attacked. The orders did not control specific land in Europe (the Hospitallers got Rhodes and then Malta) to form their own stare, and were thus very vurnurable to an attack such as the one they suffered.

The Templars did have papal support, at least before Philip's pope-bullying, though.

As for the gain of Rhodes and then Malta: But why would the Hospitalers fare better regardless of who controls things like that?

OTL the Templars seem to have been slower to do something about it, but that doesn't mean they were inherently weaker post-1291.

[CP11]

I think the suggestion that the Templars get involved in Reconquista is a really interesting one as lack of crusading means a lack of importance which was one of the reasons I saw them struggling.

[Strategos' Risk]

I don't really get why the Templars are such a big deal when there were a bunch of other knightly orders out there. The Hospitallers and the Teutonic Knights are only the tip of the iceberg, too.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk

I don't really get why the Templars are such a big deal when there were a bunch of other knightly orders out there. The Hospitallers and the Teutonic Knights are only the tip of the iceberg, too.

Well, they were the first and one of the biggest.

There weren't that many knightly orders that were really significant on a large scale, even if you can probably name a dozen in just Iberia.

[Dan1988]

Portugal might be a better bet in this case for a surviving Knights Templar - supposedly, they had a significant role in the Portuguese Reconquista, and there's a church in Tomar which is supposedly based on the Dome of the Rock courtesy of the Portuguese Templars. In OTL, after their suppression, the King of Portugal at the time basically allowed the Templars to remain as before; only the name changed to the Order of Christ (which is nowadays Portugal's highest civilian award, with the Order's Grand Master as the President of the Republic). Now, take it and stretch it, and things could get interesting. Templar colonies in Brazil, for example?

[Uruk]

The easiest POD would probably be if the testament of Alfonso I of Aragon is honoured

[Airship_pirate1901]

Folks, the reason for my interest in the Templars is that are ultimately a tragic organization,they had it all and lost it just as quickly. That's why I'm Interested in them and there survival.

[Podveleska Utoka]

Originally Posted by Fox Eating Bamboo

The Knights Hospitaller and Teutonic Order both survived as forces to be reckoned with until the 1500's and as more minor powers for many more years. I'd say use them as a model. One thing to note is that both of those two orders owned territory on the edges of Christendom - the Teutonic Knights in the Baltic and the Hospitaller in the Mediterranean near the Holy Land (Cyprus, Rhodes, Malta).

The best way to have the Templar survive is for Philip the Fair to not carry out his operation. Because he doesn't feel like it. Perhaps the TP is before then, though.

I think an interesting scenario would be for the Knights Templar to become more involved in Iberia and the Reconquista after being driven out of the Holy Land. I choose Iberia because it's the borderlands that aren't taken yet by other knights. Maybe the TP is them being asked to help after a major defeat of some Christian state by the Almohads or Grenada? Perhaps they could survive long enough to be heavily involved in the conquests and conversions of the New World, or try to mimic the Iberian Reconquista in Northern Africa.

Still, with the world changing so much at the time of the Renaissance and Reformation, the Templar will have to evolve in that time or become a relic. And they can't become powerful enough to make any strong monarch feel threatened. I think it's not unlikely for them to become a more peaceful and scholarly religious order in future centuries.

Spanish had their own orders of religious knights. The only way the templars could survive is to get in the balkans, there are heretical bogomils there at that time, there are turks/infidels to fight and it is on the edge of europe. same as baltic for teutonic and rhodes/malta for hospitaliers. And yes, they need to really put down their moneylending bussines, cause they charged usury

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Airship_pirate1901

Folks, the reason for my interest in the Templars is that are ultimately a tragic organization,they had it all and lost it just as quickly. That's why I'm Interested in them and there survival.

Like I said - the best place for that is Portugal.

[ByzantineCaesar]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

Like I said - the best place for that is Portugal.

The Templars did survive in Portugal as the Order of Christ.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by ByzantineCaesar

The Templars did survive in Portugal as the Order of Christ.

I mentioned that already a couple of posts above you. Where I think it would be different to fit in the OP is to expand it from merely surviving in Portugal. Say, for example, the Templars becoming an élite Portuguese military unit-cum-Black Watch with the added benefit of being something like the Knights of Columbus w/o the name change. Based on that alone, one could have, say, Templar colonies in Brazil (for example) where those colonies could originally have been frontier settlements guarding the border, and/or the Templars gaining as much power as the Jesuits did in OTL. Imagine how different Brazilian history would be in that case.