Retrospective US Presidential Election Results Thread

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

His relationship with Monica, I admit, was not good, but there is no evidence that Clinton was a serial adulterer. He had only one affair, so he pales in comparison to JFK.

Hmm. I dunno -- infidelity with one person is as bad as infidelity with multiple people, because once is all it takes to betray the trust of your romantic partner. In any case, I think it's better to rate presidents based on job performance rather than what sort of a person they are. For instance, though there's no evidence to suggest that George W. Bush cheated on his wife, Clinton was obviously a much better president than Dubya.

[Turquoise Blue]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Hmm. I dunno -- infidelity with one person is as bad as infidelity with multiple people, because once is all it takes to betray the trust of your romantic partner. In any case, I think it's better to rate presidents based on job performance rather than what sort of a person they are. For instance, though there's no evidence to suggest that George W. Bush cheated on his wife, Clinton was obviously a much better president than Dubya.

I do incorporate that in the elections. Clinton gets green for that. Fremont would have screwed up the Civil War horribly, maybe even resulting in the secession of Kentucky and Missouri as well.

[jpj1421]

I almost gave President Pickney a Green status for almost assuredly avoiding war with England, but decided against it for some reason. I also couldn't pull the trigger on giving Ford a Red. If I'm a Carter apologist, I may as well be a Ford apologist.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

His relationship with Monica, I admit, was not good, but there is no evidence that Clinton was a serial adulterer. He had only one affair, so he pales in comparison to JFK.

What about Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, or Elizabeth Gracen? Especially the first one. Clinton argued that his presidency should've made him immune to Civil charges. The case was only thrown out because there were "no damages". Jones then won the sexual harassment suit on appeal.

[Plumber]

Methinks every President after Webster, including Clay's second term, were bad for the Civil War to happen. Clay and Webster must have been not great either, since they weren't elected consecutively. Lincoln is the first great POTUS since John Quincy Adams. Although Scott or a Libertian probably won us the Southwest.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Plumber

Methinks every President after Webster, including Clay's second term, were bad for the Civil War to happen. Clay and Webster must have been not great either, since they weren't elected consecutively. Lincoln is the first great POTUS since John Quincy Adams. Although Scott or a Libertian probably won us the Southwest.

They could've chosen not to run consecutively. Family issues or whatnot, followed by popular demand.

[Turquoise Blue]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

What about Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, or Elizabeth Gracen? Especially the first one. Clinton argued that his presidency should've made him immune to Civil charges. The case was only thrown out because there were "no damages". Jones then won the sexual harassment suit on appeal.

OK. Demoting him to red now.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

OK. Demoting him to red now.

Good call if you're weighing personal lives in your list.

If someone's list merely consists of presidential achievements/failures and political ethics, I'd rate him at least grey, and likely green.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

OK. Demoting him to red now.

I think you took the opposite message from that -- Clinton and JFK were horndogs, but both were at least fairly decent as presidents.

[Abhakhazia]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

I think you took the opposite message from that -- Clinton and JFK were horndogs, but both were at least fairly decent as presidents.

JFK was an OK president, but I can't really form an opinion on him because he was only in office a short time.

[Plumber]

1. George Washington
2. John Adams
3. Thomas Jefferson
4. Charles C. Pinckney
5. James Madison
6. Rufus King
7. DeWitt Clinton
8. John Quincy Adams
9. Henry Clay
10. Daniel Webster
11. James G. Birney
12. Henry Clay
13. Gerrit Smith
14. Winfield Scott
15. John C. Fremont
16. Abraham Lincoln
17. Andrew Johnson
18. Ulysses S. Grant
19. Peter Cooper
20. James A. Garfield
21. Chester A. Arthur

??. Eugene V. Debs
??. Theodore Roosevelt
??. Eugene V. Debs
??. Theodore Roosevelt
??. Charles Evans Hughes
??. Eugene V. Debs
??. Robert M. La Follette Sr.
??. Burton K. Wheeler
??. Al Smith
??. Franklin D. Roosevelt
??. Harry S Truman
??. Dwight D. Eisenhower
??. John F. Kennedy
??. Lyndon B. Johnson
??. Hubert Humphrey
??. George McGovern
??. Gerald Ford
??. Jimmy Carter
??. Walter Mondale
??. Michael Dukakis
??. Bill Clinton

[elomire678]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

I think you took the opposite message from that -- Clinton and JFK were horndogs, but both were at least fairly decent as presidents.

Bleh, Clinton ended Welfare, ended the Glass-Stegall protections, and shifted the Democratic Party vastly to the right. He did accomplish a good bit, but it seemed to me that it was mostly the other party's agenda. JFK started Vietnam, botched the Bay of Pigs, but was good on civil rights. Both are vastly overrated presidents in my opinion. I can easily see why someone would rate both bad or mediocre, as I did.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by elomire678

Bleh, Clinton ended Welfare, ended the Glass-Stegall protections, and shifted the Democratic Party vastly to the right. He did accomplish a good bit, but it seemed to me that it was mostly the other party's agenda. JFK started Vietnam, botched the Bay of Pigs, but was good on civil rights. Both are vastly overrated presidents in my opinion. I can easily see why someone would rate both bad or mediocre, as I did.

Eisenhower "started" Vietnam, no? I mean, it was already started, but he got us involved in the first place, right?

[Justin Green]

Why all the hate for Rufus King?

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Why all the hate for Rufus King?

Americans hate kings. Remember the Revolution?

[Plumber]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Why all the hate for Rufus King?

His opponent was elected with a Federalist running mate. Clearly he fucked up for that to happen.

Originally Posted by elomire678

Bleh, Clinton ended Welfare, ended the Glass-Stegall protections, and shifted the Democratic Party vastly to the right. He did accomplish a good bit, but it seemed to me that it was mostly the other party's agenda. JFK started Vietnam, botched the Bay of Pigs, but was good on civil rights. Both are vastly overrated presidents in my opinion. I can easily see why someone would rate both bad or mediocre, as I did.

IMO, ITTL Clinton primaried the incompetent Dukakis, moved the Democrats to the center when the Republicans collapsed, taking in many center-right voters. He's a great politician. Great President, ITTL we can't say.

Great President IOTL he certainly isn't. Even JFK was better than him, and JFK's Presidency consisted of lunging from one foreign policy crisis to the other while failing to enact his domestic program. Though he does get points for Laos. IMO that really makes it evident that any Democrat in the Oval Office after Dien Bien Phu would have allied with Vietnam. But we had Dwight D. Eisenhower

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Eisenhower "started" Vietnam, no? I mean, it was already started, but he got us involved in the first place, right?

Yes. Truman helped the French a bit, and after they lost Eisenhower scuttled the postwar Vietnamese Republic in two in an effort at rollback. Truman criticized this is being eager to go to war in Indochina. Compare Laos in 1961, and Iran in 1979. None of those Presidents were foolish enough to try rollback.

JFK's great failing was to continue Eisenhower's disastrous precedent of coups instead of returning to Truman's more intelligent foreign policy. But JFK had a hard-on for the CIA, while Truman thought the CIA had become a dangerous creature under Eisenhower. It's almost as if Truman intended the CIA to collect intelligence instead of that Eisenhower-Dulles Bros. / Kennedy Murder Inc. black ops shit.

[QuoProQuid]

Originally Posted by Plumber

JFK's great failing was to continue Eisenhower's disastrous precedent of coups instead of returning to Truman's more intelligent foreign policy. But JFK had a hard-on for the CIA, while Truman thought the CIA had become a dangerous creature under Eisenhower. It's almost as if Truman intended the CIA to collect intelligence instead of that Eisenhower-Dulles Bros. / Kennedy Murder Inc. black ops shit.

Everything I've read says that Kennedy grew to loathe and fear the CIA, especially after they went ahead with the Bay of Pigs invasion. He thought that the agency had become far too powerful and feared that he would be the victim of a coup. I don't know how realistic that fear was but it highlights his opinions of the CIA.

[Dean501]

1. George Washington
2. John Adams
3. Thomas Jefferson
4. Charles C. Pinckney
5. James Madison
6. Rufus King I have no idea for these four.
7. DeWitt Clinton
8. John Quincy Adams
9. Henry Clay
10. Daniel Webster
11. James G. Birney
12. Henry Clay
13. Gerrit Smith
14. Winfield Scott
15. John C. Fremont
16. Abraham Lincoln
17. Andrew Johnson
18. Ulysses S. Grant
19. Peter Cooper
20. James A. Garfield
21. Chester A. Arthur

??. Eugene V. Debs
??. Theodore Roosevelt
??. Eugene V. Debs
??. Theodore Roosevelt
??. Eugene V. Debs Assuming Debs moderates up as he grows older and is reelected a few times nonconsecutively. I'm not big on "Revolutionary Socialism"
??. Charles Evans Hughes
??. Robert M. La Follette Sr.
??. Burton K. Wheeler
??. Al Smith
??. Franklin D. Roosevelt
??. Harry S Truman
??. Dwight D. Eisenhower
??. John F. Kennedy
??. Lyndon B. Johnson
??. Hubert Humphrey
??. George McGovern
??. Gerald Ford
??. Jimmy Carter
[COLOR="Green]??. Walter Mondale[/COLOR]
??. Michael Dukakis
??. Bill Clinton

[Turquoise Blue]

Heh. I just saw the Debs-Roosevelt-Debs-Roosevelt dealo we have. I'm declaring them the American equivalent to Gladstone and Disraeli.

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

Heh. I just saw the Debs-Roosevelt-Debs-Roosevelt dealo we have. I'm declaring them the American equivalent to Gladstone and Disraeli.

THAT may be the greatest idea for an American political thriller ever.