The Whale has Wings

[Expat]

One thing I've seen written before on this thread is that the stronger, better-performing French are going to side with the British in debating strategy with the Americans. But if the Americans (foolishly) want to push for an early invasion of France, isn't there a pretty good chance that the French will (foolishly) promote that idea? And since we're talking about a stronger, better-performing French force, might that carry the argument even further than OTL?

When exactly did a significant US bomber force make it over to Europe? I'm reading in my generic "A Time Line of the Second World War" that the first US air missions start in the summer of '42, but that gives no notion of scale.

[Astrodragon]

You do all remember the British took the useful bits in the Dodecanese area last year, right...??

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Expat

One thing I've seen written before on this thread is that the stronger, better-performing French are going to side with the British in debating strategy with the Americans. But if the Americans (foolishly) want to push for an early invasion of France, isn't there a pretty good chance that the French will (foolishly) promote that idea? And since we're talking about a stronger, better-performing French force, might that carry the argument even further than OTL?

When exactly did a significant US bomber force make it over to Europe? I'm reading in my generic "A Time Line of the Second World War" that the first US air missions start in the summer of '42, but that gives no notion of scale.

The French will ceratinly want to return to France, but they are a bit more realistic than Marshall. And have a limited manpower pool they cant waste.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by abc123

Astrodragon, can we get basic TT numbers for Britist fighter aircrafts ITTL?

TT numbers??

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

TT numbers??

= the number of their aircrew who've participated (pre-War) in the Isle of Man's 'TT Races'?

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by Expat

One thing I've seen written before on this thread is that the stronger, better-performing French are going to side with the British in debating strategy with the Americans. But if the Americans (foolishly) want to push for an early invasion of France, isn't there a pretty good chance that the French will (foolishly) promote that idea? And since we're talking about a stronger, better-performing French force, might that carry the argument even further than OTL?

When exactly did a significant US bomber force make it over to Europe? I'm reading in my generic "A Time Line of the Second World War" that the first US air missions start in the summer of '42, but that gives no notion of scale.

They were small scale that summer. A symbolic small scale medium bomber raid on July 4th. The first small Heavy Bomber raids started in August. Nothing large (100+ aircraft) until late fall/winter.

1942 was a year for ramping up and gaining experience for the US. 1943 and 1944 are where American numbers and industry really make a difference.

[Gannt the chartist]

My main issue with Sardinia is that Kent Hewlitt and Mary Cunningham specifically rejected any invasion outside land based fighter cover during this period. and I think they know more about the matter than you or me.

The actual numbers of a/c available TTL are speculative - how many lost in Libya for example.

OTL there were 80-100 a/c in Sardinia more or less permanently with between 50 and 75 bombers. With a further 500 fighter and 300 bomber in Italy/Sicily with up to 100 FB and DB (most were in Libya OTL) and Luftflotte 2 say 220 a/c all types. KG26 was at some point based there. as were a lot of the Italian anti shipping units.

Stolen from Axis History Forum the airbases are:

SARDINIA

Permanent Airports/Airbases:

Cagliari-Elmas - Most important airbase with fixed installations with at least an hard surface runway in 1940, operative also by floatplanes.
Monserrato[ - Airbase with fixed installations employed apparently only by fighters.
Alghero-Fertilia- Airbase with fixed installations, bomber level, hard surface runway at least in 1943. The rare bombings of Gibraltar made by S.82 was done from this airbase, which means it had a runway long enough for overweight S.82.
Olbia - Airbase but with scarse support- operative by floatplanes too.

Campo di Manovra- Maneuver landing grounds that went operative at war start or during war:

Villacidro (Trunconi)(nº9)- bomber Stormo(36 bombers) at start, can be big. Me 323 operated from there later.
http://www.villacidro.net/zzz/storia/1939-40.htm
Decimomannu(nº39) - bomber Stormo(36 bombers) at start, can be big.
Milis - unclear if it existed at start, bombers operated from it 1942 at least.
Case Zeppara(Sa Zeppara) - 1200m compacted earth surface runway build already in war, some building was done including hangar but only for supplies and ammunition, the air personnel was dispersed around the camp . Operated by torpedo bombers.
Santa Giusta - Idroscalo(flotplane base), some sources say it was abandoned during war because of malaria.
Oristano - Bomber able, some say it had a hard surface runway in 1943. Some references to Malaria also.
Chilivani- being prepared at war start(10 June 1940). No more data.
Venafiorita - bomber able at war start, operated Me 323 later in war.

Campo di Fortuna- small emergency landing grounds - most if not all build during war:

Milis E.17a - alternative landing 3km south of Milis - build in war.
Borore
Villacidro-Forru
Villacidro-Cotta x2


There were more emergency landing grounds but i don't have info on them. Any big landing ground should have at least one diversion emergency landing ground nearby. Villacidro for example had 3.

Others:
Ottana - operative in 1943, unclear if earlier. Unclear if Campo di Manovra or Fortuna.
Capoterra - no data.

CORSICA

Airports:
Bastia
Ajaccio(Campo dell Oro) and Aspretto Floatplane and Naval Base.

Landing Grounds:
Bonifacio
Porto Vecchio
Ghisonaccia
Travo
Borgo
Calvi
Ajaccio(Valinco Gulf) - emergency

The corsican airbases alone could handle 480 A/C according to an invasion study. And Decimomannu is by 42 a major base - still is in fact. you will have to look up where they are but there is a resonable scattering across the island.

[Gannt the chartist]

That should read Italian A/C and Decimomannu was a major base by 42 (still is in fact

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

You do all remember the British took the useful bits in the Dodecanese area last year, right...??

You're going to test us on those details at the end of the timeline, right?

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

TT numbers??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_scale

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Ramp-Rat

MattII, yes the high level bombing will have an affect, though its going to take time for the affect to fully kick in. there is a certain inertia in the T/L, change will always be slow at first, speeding up later. At the moment the RAF have a few High Level Bombers, and a multitude of targets to aim at. There is no one target that is going to end the war tomorrow, nor are the bombs available, anywhere as event changing as an A-Bomb. This isn’t like the destruction of ether the German or Italian surface fleet, which had an immediate effect. This will be far more a slow but quickening grind, as the Germans have to deploy more effort into dealing with this new weapon.

This will basically depend on how effective the bombing will be. The very high level should drastically reduce losses in the short term but could also reduce accuracy further. Also this presumes that only such high level bombers are going in. If mixed forces then the lower level Halifax's and Lanc's are still going to be vulnerable to the air defences and also, as the lower level Sterling's were OTL, to bombs from higher level attackers possibly going through their formation. True BC will try and avoid this by vectoring in flights at different times but certain that some planes/formations will be arriving earlier/later depending on circumstances.

As for the changes in the availability of shipping, due to the lower level of losses, of both ships and men, and the increase in ship numbers resulting from new builds. People often forget just how many merchant seamen lost their lives, so less sinking’s mean more seamen to man the ships. This will along with a number of factors, as with the HL bombers see a slow but accelerating change. Older ships that were kept on the North Atlantic run, will be moved, and replaced by faster, more reliable new builds. These older ships, will be directed to areas where they can sail independently, and used on inter empire trade.

Agree that the saving of crews and ships will be a big boost economically as well as in human terms. Suspect that older ships will also be used on the Atlantic runs as more likely better conditions will prompt the allies to send more men/forces/resources, although the fact that Britain has other economic options, i.e. French N Africa for some things will lighten the load.

It looks as if the Indian Ocean is to be a British lake, and shipping free to sail without escort. Not only does this release, escorts for use elsewhere, it also improves efficiency. One of the major disadvantages with convoys is the additional time added to turnarounds. As ship wait in the roads for there turn to enter the port and unload/load. Convoys from Britain can once they have cleared the Suez Canal, split and sail on to their final destination, at each ships best speed. In the same way shipping for Britain, will only form its convoy once it reaches Gibraltar, as up until then it will have been part of local convoys in the Mediterranean, ether delivering cargos to units there, and or collecting cargos from North Africa. Only those ships fully laden, and just transiting the Med will be convoyed from Suez to Gib, the rest depending on where they are headed will ether sail independently of in local convoys.

Accurate in the problems of convoys but not sure that the allies will decide to dispense with them in the Indian Ocean. OTL the Germans still got some U Boats and occasional raiders into the region and not sure how reliant they were on Japanese bases that are going to be further away TTL. Might be that using purely independent sailings in the Indian Ocean will be more efficient in terms of total resources but the allies might not be certain of that in advance and it will cost a few more lives at sea. [Although greater efficiency in moving resources about might save more on land as a result, but that will be less transparent I suspect].

Steve

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

TT numbers??

Tactical-technical parameters ( speed, range, weapons, rate of climb etc. )

TT numbers is technical term in my language, sorry...

[abc123]

Originally Posted by LegionoftheUnitedStates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_scale

Will you guy's continue with trying to explain "TT numbers" please? I find your explanations very amusing...

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by abc123

Will you guy's continue with trying to explain "TT numbers" please? I find your explanations very amusing...

Figure out the total of waafs, wrens etc, and multiplly by two?

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by LegionoftheUnitedStates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_scale

But just think how many you can fit on an Audacious-class...

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Figure out the total of waafs, wrens etc, and multiplly by two?

Groooan...

[Garrison]

I do wonder what the impact will be in places like Java if the Allies defeat the Japanese invasion? What will it do to the nationalists who built their reputations fighting the Japanese after their colonial masters were forced to run away? There's still going to be decolonisation but probably a much slower more controlled process with the old colonial powers retaining more influence.

[wietze]

Originally Posted by Garrison

I do wonder what the impact will be in places like Java if the Allies defeat the Japanese invasion? What will it do to the nationalists who built their reputations fighting the Japanese after their colonial masters were forced to run away? There's still going to be decolonisation but probably a much slower more controlled process with the old colonial powers retaining more influence.

For the dutch indies you won't see a indonesia as otl, probably independent Java, and independent Sumatra (could even have a atjeh state) later on. rest of it Borneo, Moluccas, new guinea will be retained much longer. (unless the us tries the same stab in the back as it did otl, but i think politics might be different ittl).

[HJ Tulp]

Originally Posted by Garrison

I do wonder what the impact will be in places like Java if the Allies defeat the Japanese invasion? What will it do to the nationalists who built their reputations fighting the Japanese after their colonial masters were forced to run away? There's still going to be decolonisation but probably a much slower more controlled process with the old colonial powers retaining more influence.

The nationalists in Java (or the rest of the DEI AFAIK) didn't fight the Japanese at all except after the capitulation in 1945. In fact they collaborated extensively with the occupier who schooled, armed and trained them. Sukarno who became President of Indonesia after the war encouraged the Indonesians to join the work-programs in which hundreds of thousands died. If the invasion is defeated (which is almost certain) the colonial masters will have proven that they are capable of defending the colony, the nationalists will not have much more credit then they had before the war especially when word of the Japanese atrocities reaches the island. The KNIL will be in place instead of returning (or in a lot of cases not returning) from concentration camps. What really hurt the Dutch efforts after the Japanese capitulation was that they had to build op the KNIL from scratch again. Almost all lessons learned in Atjeh were forgotten. The Marechaussee te Voet (Constabulary on Foot) (which was a contra-guerilla force that basically won the war in Atjeh) was practically destroyed and wouldn't return after 1942. General Berenschot (whose death should be butterflied away and should command the Allied forces on Java in this TL) was formerly of that Corps and will be in the perfect position to crush any insurrection.


EDIT: What really did the Dutch in when they tried to return after the Japanese capitulation was that they couldn't restore order quickly enough, also because of the lack of men. The caused a powervacuum called the Bersiap period where there was chaos everywhere, mostly from roving bands of criminals who only payed lip service to the idea of a independent Indonesia. At a certain point the native population just wanted the chaos to end and started supporting the Nationalists in greater numbers.

[Hyperion]

Sardinia may make a nice target in and of itself, but I'd hit Sicily first and foremost. It's closer to Malta and land based air cover from Africa, and clearing out Sicily will take the pressure off Malta, and go far in opening up the Meditteranean for convoys to and from the Indian Ocean and Pacific.

One idea on Sardinia though, the US might have a brigade or so going in at Sicily, and the bulk of the 1st Infantry Division waiting to land later on.

Could that entire division, or another US division be used entirely along with say a Corps sized British force to take Sardinia later on, say a month or so after Sicily falls.