WI: An Even Broader Holocaust

[Armored Diplomacy]

Originally Posted by sharlin

Nope but still its basically what you're asking the world to do. Be utterly blind. And unless hitler had some kind of Nazi mind control gas there's a darn good chance that the Germans would not go along with this unmitigated slaughter. Its bad enough what happened in the Holocaust but this 'suggestion' makes it seem like a minor thing.

So what will realistically happen if Hitler gives the order?

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by sharlin

Okay now you're assuming the whole world is snorting paint thinner.

*Le swedish red cross official in his office*

"Hmm...the eight teams we've sent to monitor the Germans prisoners of war have not reported back in *X MONTHS* I'm suuuuuuuuuuuuuure nothing's wrong."

The OP is just trying to get his square shaped idea to fit the round hole of the real world.

Does the OP know that there were British SOE and later American OSS operatives in Europe working with the resistance groups?

THEY WOULD BE AWARE of mass killing and pillaging and would be reporting it. Does the OP know that the Allies HAD PLANES that were flying over the Europe taking pictures. Virtually every square meter of Europe had been photographed by 1944.

Paris being a ghost city would be noticed. In 1941 the British army would have noticed if all the Arabs AND Italians (in this ASB situation) had been killed in Tobruk and Benghazi.

Sorry for the capital letters but this scenario is just too poorly thought out.

[sharlin]

The more right thinking Generals who have managed to hold onto their independence tell him to fff off whilst the rest of the party officials wonder where the hell this came from.

The Nazi's would never get to power if it was a case of 'KILL ALL THE THINGS! _o/'

[Armored Diplomacy]

Originally Posted by Devolved

The OP is just trying to get his square shaped idea to fit the round hole of the real world.

Does the OP know that there were British SOE and later American OSS operatives in Europe working with the resistance groups?

THEY WOULD BE AWARE of mass killing and pillaging and would be reporting it. Does the OP know that the Allies HAD PLANES that were flying over the Europe taking pictures. Virtually every square meter of Europe had been photographed by 1944.

Paris being a ghost city would be noticed. In 1941 the British army would have noticed if all the Arabs AND Italians (in this ASB situation) had been killed in Tobruk and Benghazi.

Sorry for the capital letters but this scenario is just too poorly thought out.

But what do they do? They know, but how will it change their battle plans?

Do you think they will divert bombers to strike concentration camps and rail lines, or decide, as in OTL, to divert everything they had to destroying the German war machine?

In any event, my main question is what happens to Germany after the war?

[Armored Diplomacy]

Originally Posted by sharlin

The more right thinking Generals who have managed to hold onto their independence tell him to fff off whilst the rest of the party officials wonder where the hell this came from.

The Nazi's would never get to power if it was a case of 'KILL ALL THE THINGS! _o/'

Hmm, a coup? Do you think the interim military administration would try to end the war early with a negotiated settlement?

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

But what do they do? They know, but how will it change their battle plans?

Do you think they will divert bombers to strike concentration camps and rail lines, or decide, as in OTL, to divert everything they had to destroying the German war machine?

In any event, my main question is what happens to Germany after the war?

I'm sorry you haven't really thought this through.

Sharlin and I have just told you what would happen.

It wouldn't get that far.

No Italian, Hungarian, Slovak, Croat, Romanian or other Allies.

You do know the Germans had millions of Allies?

No slave labour to keep the German economy going. Who's going to load the supply ships for Rommel in North Africa if all the Italians and Arabs are being killed?

Who is growing the food in France and Eastern Europe to feed the German army?

Forget about diverting bombers. Forget about the Allies changing strategy. Not relevant not important.

[Emperor Norton I]

This would come back to bite the Nazis. Assimilation does a lot of good for any civilization. Non-assimilation, and this genocide, would lead to stagnation as well as likely limitations in the labor force.

Nazism believed in Aryanism, whereby all Nordic White people were the superior race, and any other white people were not bad, at least so long as they weren't Jewish, Homosexual, or handicapped. That's millions upon millions upon millions of people that Nazism was perfectly accepting of. The majority of Europe would be left alone, while the minority would be persecuted and mass murdered.
Now, flip that on it's ear, and create this scenario. You're eating into not just the minority, but the majority of Europe. There's only so many Germans in the world. You end up with death camps incapable of containing the massive population numbers, and without enough personnel to staff them. You end up with no allies (the Germans weren't leading a genocide of Italians and Japanese in the OTL). And you end up with an underpopulated Reich (not through genocide, necessarily, but through treating all other nationalities as subhuman and thus not allow any work or management from them). All of which make it easily picked off by the Allies.

[Armored Diplomacy]

Originally Posted by Devolved

I'm sorry you haven't really thought this through.

Sharlin and I have just told you what would happen.

It wouldn't get that far.

No Italian, Hungarian, Slovak, Croat, Romanian or other Allies.

You do know the Germans had millions of Allies?

No slave labour to keep the German economy going. Who's going to load the supply ships for Rommel in North Africa if all the Italians and Arabs are being killed?

Who is growing the food in France and Eastern Europe to feed the German army?

Forget about diverting bombers. Forget about the Allies changing strategy. Not relevant not important.

So how long would Germany last in the war?

And what about the repercussions and effects afterward?

[VictorLaszlo]

If anything like this would have been ordered by the Nazi leadership an army coup would have been certain, since even if the army wouldn't have had moral qualms with such an order, and the fact that in OTL numerous officers did not follow Hitler's Commisar Order speaks against such a notion, they would have been aware that such actions would mean war with virtually every country in the world and no hope for allies.

Furthermore no enemy would have been willing to surrender if he knew that it would mean certain extinction. In OTL german soldiers in the west even had strict orders to behave themselves to not fuel resistence against german occupation.

[TheKinkster]

If the Nazis do anything like this, they get Operation Vegetarian the moment the British are capable of carrying it out.

[Hayaban War]

The Saner Nazis launch a coup 48 hours after the order's implemented and repeals it.

[deathscompanion1]

More likely is the following message is read out on the radio.

Our Beloved leader Adolf Hitler has died peacefully in his sleep. We will never forget his great work for the Deustch Volk.

The Whermarcht is taking the lead in this difficult time as we move forward.

On a similarly tragic not the SS leader Heinrich Himmler has died in a car accident.

Seriously Hitler and anyone stupid enough to go along with the idea would be removed followed by the complete collapse of the German state.


On a side not what would a reformed Nazi Germany look like, I never held much stock in it just implodes straight away their would have to be some attempt to moderate it to realistic levels and I would be very interested in what a moderate nazi ( read not a Nazi ) would look like.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Hayaban War

The Saner Nazis launch a coup 48 hours after the order's implemented and repeals it.

Is a Hitler blaming EVERYONE for Germany's defeat and saying EVERYONE needs to be crushed going to even be able to come to power in the first place?

[Hayaban War]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Is a Hitler blaming EVERYONE for Germany's defeat and saying EVERYONE needs to be crushed going to even be able to come to power in the first place?

Let's assume that he does that circa 1941-1942 and Goering,recognizing Hitler's now too crazy for his tastes,launches a putsch.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Hayaban War

Let's assume that he does that circa 1941-1942 and Goering,recognizing Hitler's now too crazy for his tastes,launches a putsch.

Goering, the fat and useless? That Goering?

[Maponus]

He's not elected.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Goering, the fat and useless? That Goering?

He was the heir apparent and was willing to live in luxury rather than invading others, so he might be more manageable.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Clandango

He was the heir apparent and was willing to live in luxury rather than invading others, so he might be more manageable.

Indeed. What I doubt is that he'd lead a coup - someone who for some reason doesn't want the position for themselves leading it in his name, maybe.

[CalBear]

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

Suppose Hitler had genocidal views against not just Jews, Gypsies, and Homosexuals, but on all non-Germans. This can be done by making him many times more fanatical in his beliefs of German racial superiority, many times more bitter over the way Germany was treated after World War I, and get him to look down on all other peoples, even white people, as inferior and deserving of extermination.

So let's say that Hitler's plan involves not just conquering Europe (and later the world), but exterminating it and making it Aryan-only. So more concentration camps are built, and everyone who is not German is sent there. That includes Allied POWs. Across Europe, and in Russia and North Africa, there is full-on genocide against everyone. The Nazis attempt to hide it as best they can, especially from their allies, but when Italy is occupied, the Germans go genocidal on the local population as well.

So the Germans carry out a total scorched-earth policy, raping, burning, and killing as they advance. Entire towns and villages are depopulated and burned or razed. Cities are burned and depopulated, with their population shipped to concentration camps where most are gassed immediately on arrival, and some being chosen for work before being killed (similar to Treblinka).

So what are the effects of Hitler being even more batshit crazy than he was?

Actually he did have plans to kill a LOT more than just Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals. Slavs were at the top of the list, his plans were to effectively depopulate Eastern Europe except for a small slave population to make way for German colonization. These people were to be worked to death recreating the East in the Nazi's insane image, starting with eradicating Moscow and St. Petersburg, literally to the last brick. The Reich called it "extermination through labor".

He didn't have much use for Africans either, or "mongrelized" populations like that of the United States.

Hitler saw ALL non Aryans as being less than human.

[Gorm the Old]

Originally Posted by Devolved

The OP is just trying to get his square shaped idea to fit the round hole of the real world.

...

Sorry for the capital letters but this scenario is just too poorly thought out.

The population of these countries probably wouldn't just surrender to the Nazis either. It's one thing to pretend like you don't know the Jews are being taken away to God knows where, it's quite another when the Nazis are indiscriminately grabbing everyone. When the punishment for rebelling is no different from not rebelling, there's pretty much no reason not to rebel. And I have a hard time believing the Nazis can hold down all of their conquests if all of the civilian population has stopped working and started fighting.

Kind of a really sick scenario, and I'm not sure who it's directed at. The more success the Nazis have with this plan, the more likely that a massive retribution would be exacted upon Germany at the end of the war, something that would make any OTL plans look like they got off easy.

It of course wouldn't ever get that far as others have pointed out, since the kind of extermination policies they were planning required too much time to be carried out. By which point they would have been defeated militarily. Going for the quick solution would see a coup against Hitler, by people who oppose the extermination and the ones that realize that it would lose them the war.

There is of course also the fact that the soldiers suffered severe stress from all the atrocities they carried out, even the most hardcore SS. There are simply so many things that prevent this from being carried out, and obsessing with trying to make it work is kind of creepy.