Madagascar Plan

[Alan]

Before the Nazis initiated the Jewish genocide, they considered deporting the Jews to Madagascar. This plan was abandoned because of Britain's ongoing resistance. However, let us assume the British make peace in 1940 for whatever reason. Maybe Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister instead of Churchill, or the BEF is captured at Dunkirk. How Britain makes peace is irrelevant. Anyway, the result of this is that the Germans now have access to the sealanes and decide to institute the Madagascar Plan. What would have been the consequences of this?

[Richter von Manthofen]

The "Hitler was a madman faction" jumps at your thread...

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Alan

Before the Nazis initiated the Jewish genocide, they considered deporting the Jews to Madagascar. This plan was abandoned because of Britain's ongoing resistance. However, let us assume the British make peace in 1940 for whatever reason. Maybe Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister instead of Churchill, or the BEF is captured at Dunkirk. How Britain makes peace is irrelevant. Anyway, the result of this is that the Germans now have access to the sealanes and decide to institute the Madagascar Plan. What would have been the consequences of this?

So....the holocaust was Britain's fault for not surrendering?

Thanks for telling us that important piece of information.

[Clandango]

Massive starvation. No one is allowed to take anything of value. The issue of how the people of Madagascar are not Black like other Africans will never be brought up.

[Meadow]

Originally Posted by Devolved

So....the holocaust was Britain's fault for not surrendering?

Thanks for telling us that important piece of information.

Given that what would have happened instead can at best be called genocide by neglect, I'm not sure that's his point.

[Zmflavius]

Basically an Armenian Genocide revved up to 11. Suffice to say that anyone "fortunate" enough to survive the boat ride to Madagascar dies of starvation on arrival.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Meadow

Given that what would have happened instead can at best be called genocide by neglect, I'm not sure that's his point.

I guess his point is that he wants to get the Jews to Madagascar after some sort of a Nazi tiumph in Europe.

He was the one that said it was 'blocked' by the British and then brought up the usual Halifax becomes PM stuff.

Most of the Jews would die from starvation and disease far away from European eyes. Same as the Holocaust.

Perhaps the Germans would make the 'Turkish Defence' when explaining what happened to the Armenians. It wasn't genocide they just died!

[Alan]

Britain is irrelevant to the discussion, certainly in terms of attributing blame. I presented Britain making peace as a necessary historical precondition for the plan, that is all. I was more interested in whether the Jews would have simply died of starvation, or whether they would have established some sort of state for themselves, in spite of the deprivations.

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by Alan

Britain is irrelevant to the discussion, certainly in terms of attributing blame. I presented Britain making peace as a necessary historical precondition for the plan, that is all. I was more interested in whether the Jews would have simply died of starvation, or whether they would have established some sort of state for themselves, in spite of the deprivations.

The Nazis weren't about to waste even a single pfennig caring for some Jews, or for any purpose other than tormenting them. They won't last the year on Madagascar.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Zmflavius

The Nazis weren't about to waste even a single pfennig caring for some Jews, or for any purpose other than tormenting them. They won't last the year on Madagascar.

It depends on how many are sent over and from where. The Germans had apparently been fine with some who emigrated to Palestine to have all their property placed in trust, which would be used to buy goods from the Germans. Not as efficient as the SS selling the food for concentration camps on the black market, but still room enough for corruption all around. Might also depend on if Germany got any colonies back, as they might want to use the island to get their tropical colonial administrators back in shape.

[Tongera]

Depends on how people are sent to Madagascar.

Too many and they will starve to death, but it depends if they got enough food, especially through the winter.

[mekilldyou]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Most of the Jews would die from starvation and disease far away from European eyes. Same as the Holocaust.

No, not same as the holocaust. They wouldn't necessary all die when arriving there, Madagascar was a french colony since 1895 and had already colonial and even pre-colonial infrastructures built. Sure the death toll would be quite high, but certainly not on the scale of the holocaust.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by mekilldyou

No, not same as the holocaust. They wouldn't necessary all die when arriving there, Madagascar was a french colony since 1895 and had already colonial and even pre-colonial infrastructures built. Sure the death toll would be quite high, but certainly not on the scale of the holocaust.

No not the same as the holocaust. The same as the Turkish genocide of the Armenians.

As for the infrastructure. Are the French just going to accept all these people as equals? Are the natives who rose up against the French in 1946/47 going to peacefully sit back watch huge numbers of white people arriving to take more of their country?

If trouble starts are the Germans going to intervene to protect the unarmed Jews.

What are you talking about. NOT the same as the holocaust?

[jmc247]

What about Libya? It already had a at least 100,000 Jews during Rommel's time there and the land is better for cultivation then Madagascar. The problem would be you would need a neutral country during the war shipping them there like Spain and the ports in Libya and Tunisia were already flooded with weapons and men coming in. The question would be what port could they be transferred to and then trucked to Libya and would Mussolini agree to it, so alot of logistical problems with using Libya either.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by jmc247

What about Libya? It already had a at least 100,000 Jews during Rommel's time there and the land is better for cultivation then Madagascar. The problem would be you would need a neutral country during the war shipping them there like Spain and the ports in Libya and Tunisia were already flooded with weapons and men coming in. The question would be what port could they be transferred to and then trucked to Libya and would Mussolini agree to it, so alot of logistical problems with using Libya either.

Libya was for the Italian settlers. I'm not sure Mussolini would want millions of Jews becoming the majority of his colony.

Also it would upset the Arabs. Having westerners colonizing their land was bad enough. Having Jews moving in would provoke them to anger and the Germans and Italians wanted to make good relations with the Arabs.

[mekilldyou]

Originally Posted by jmc247

What about Libya? It already had a at least 100,000 Jews during Rommel's time there and the land is better for cultivation then Madagascar. The problem would be you would need a neutral country during the war shipping them there like Spain and the ports in Libya and Tunisia were already flooded with weapons and men coming in. The question would be what port could they be transferred to and then trucked to Libya and would Mussolini agree to it, so alot of logistical problems with using Libya either.

I doubt they would send them in Libya because it's Italian, and because it's too close. Madagascar plan was something like "let's send them far away and never hear about them again". However another french sub-saharan colony is enterily possible and actually easier considering the french had built railroads earlier.

[mekilldyou]

Originally Posted by Devolved

No not the same as the holocaust. The same as the Turkish genocide of the Armenians.

As for the infrastructure. Are the French just going to accept all these people as equals? Are the natives who rose up against the French in 1946/47 going to peacefully sit back watch huge numbers of white people arriving to take more of their country?

If trouble starts are the Germans going to intervene to protect the unarmed Jews.

What are you talking about. NOT the same as the holocaust?

-The french would just consider them as "indigènes", that is the same status as the others natives. Same if Madagascar turn German.
-I can easily see the Jews siding with the natives and supporting independance movements. Look at South Africa, a lot of Jews actually supported the ANC. Madagascar isn't Palestine. Not sure if the locals would accept them as true Malagasys however, but I doubt they would go genocidal against them.
-No germany would not intervene to protect unarmed Jews, duh.

So yeah. Not the same as the holocaust.

[stubear1012]

This was part of a previous time line. Basically Halfax become Prime Minister and signs a peace treaty with Germany. However the plan was to rebuild and rearm the British Army and then wait for an opportunity to strike. Meanwhile, the Germans do deport the Jews to Madagarscar and it is bad. However, when Britian stikes back at Germany, they liberate Madagascar and save a lot of the Jews.

It has been awhile since I read it but I do remember there was a section dealing with the Jews being deported to Madagascar.
You may want to do a search and see how that time line developed.

Stubear1012

[krull1m]

Originally Posted by Alan

Before the Nazis initiated the Jewish genocide, they considered deporting the Jews to Madagascar. This plan was abandoned because of Britain's ongoing resistance. However, let us assume the British make peace in 1940 for whatever reason. Maybe Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister instead of Churchill, or the BEF is captured at Dunkirk. How Britain makes peace is irrelevant. Anyway, the result of this is that the Germans now have access to the sealanes and decide to institute the Madagascar Plan. What would have been the consequences of this?

They quickly realise that they dont have the naval capacity to ship the millions of jews etc overseas, not while preparing to fight the main enemy which was the USSR. Nor do they have the patience or real desire to be that merciful anyway.

In light of that the plan is quickly scrapped and an alternate solution of resolving the jewish question is sought after.

I firmly believe that the madagascar plan was never proposed in any really serious way. It was something along the lines of a PR exercise, a pretense of trying to find a "civilised" solution that they could decide was unworkable so they could move on with the real plan.
Had expulsion of the jews been an actual genuine desire of the nazis then they wouldnt have made it so hard for those jews who wanted to leave in the late 30's to be able to do so.
ALso, the nazi leaders would have tried to find somewhere other than madagascar to send them once the logisitics of shipping them was seen to be unworkable.
There were a lot of other parts of the world they could have shipped them to, these were never suggested or considered. To me, that is very telling as to their true desires and goals on the issue.

[mekilldyou]

Originally Posted by krull1m

They quickly realise that they dont have the naval capacity to ship the millions of jews etc overseas, not while preparing to fight the main enemy which was the USSR. Nor do they have the patience or real desire to be that merciful anyway.

In light of that the plan is quickly scrapped and an alternate solution of resolving the jewish question is sought after.

I firmly believe that the madagascar plan was never proposed in any really serious way. It was something along the lines of a PR exercise, a pretense of trying to find a "civilised" solution that they could decide was unworkable so they could move on with the real plan.
Had expulsion of the jews been an actual genuine desire of the nazis then they wouldnt have made it so hard for those jews who wanted to leave in the late 30's to be able to do so.
ALso, the nazi leaders would have tried to find somewhere other than madagascar to send them once the logisitics of shipping them was seen to be unworkable.
There were a lot of other parts of the world they could have shipped them to, these were never suggested or considered. To me, that is very telling as to their true desires and goals on the issue.

They did not make it hard for them to leave, and in fact most of them emigrated before the start of the war. See Haavara convention. Problem is, a large part of them settled in France and other countries later invaded by Germany, and were deported back to the Reich by the collaborationist governements. Other than that you're probably right.