Prince Henry of Prussia: The Rise of U-Boat.

[TradeMachine]

If Germany wins this war will there be a WW2. I see a future pacific war after Japan has conquered China, but WW2. I see France as powerful as Spain and Continues civil war in Russia. If in the end of the war France is treated like Germany and AH were treated in OTL, this WW2 will be a lot different if there is one.

P.S. The map was great thanks. Can you make a full political map of Africa for the beginning of 1917.

[BlondieBC]

Battle of Red Sea, Part 1

05:30: Entente minesweepers with heavy smoke screen begin clearing the minefields near Duba. In the early morning light, a steady air battle begins between fighters overhead.

06:23: Minesweeper crippled by multiple hits by 10 KG bombs when the ship briefly loses the smoke screen.

07:18: An abrupt changes in wind exposes 3 of the minesweepers. Ottoman 15 cm guns and lower open fire.

07:20: A minesweeper dies to multiple 15cm hits.

07:21: Second minesweeper dies to coastal artillery, and the third minesweeper regains the smoke screen.

07:45: The Entente attack Ottoman gun positions with 300 fighters and 100 bombers. A 15cm's magazine is hit, killing 25 men.

07:59: Air attack ends.

08:00: While concealed in the smoke screen and using spotter planes, 4 squadrons of 6 capital ships begin to engage the Ottomans near Duba. British Squadron #1 consists of the HMS Magnificient and the five remaining Formidable class ships. French Squadron #1 consists of Provence, Betagne, Diderot, Condorcet, Mirabeau, and Vergniaud. These two squadrons are engaging Ottoman Naval Artillery. British Squadron #2, which is engaging the port and city of Duba, consist of the HMS Majestic and the five remaining Canopus class ships. British Squadron #3 consisting of 6 Majestic class ships is engaging the railroad leading to Duba.

The Ottomans return fire with four 38cm guns, 35 cm guns, 4 older 28 cm guns, 20 15 cm guns and 20 10.5 cm guns. Initially, the Ottomans limit the rate of fire to 1 round per minute.

08:11: HMS Canopus hit by 35cm round in main magazine, spliting the ship in two.

08:13: Additional Ottoman fighters arrive.

08:14: German Zeppelin explodes in fireball.

08:15: Support by 4 aircraft carriers, 8 CLAA, and 40 other cruisers; the British begin landing 2 divisions 30 miles to the South.

08:20: Entente airplane spotters declare Duba port and Railroad neutralized. Entente turn off smoke screen, and BS #2 and and BS#3 switch to counter battery fire. Ottoman gunners go to maximum rate of fire and turn on smoke screens.

08:21: BS #1 achieve two hits near 28cm gun. FS#1 buries 15cm gun in dirt. HMS Albion takes 35cm hit at the forward tip of the ship. HMS Vengeance has 28cm explode on main side belt for minor damage.

08:22: BS#1 achieves 3 more hits near the 28cm gun. HMS Albion loses main rear turret to 38cm gun.

08:23: BS#1 silences the 28cm gun. HMS Albion hit by 35cm and 38 cm shells, wrecking the center of the ship and the steering respectively. HMS Albion heads to port at 8 knots.

08:24 BS#3 silences another 28 cm gun. Germans switch targets to HMS Majestic, and has two near misses.

08:25: Having fully switched over from spotter plane to ship based gun control, the Entente switches to targeting the 38 cm guns. HMS Majestic hit by two 38 cm shells almost simultaneously and disappears in a blinding flash.

08:26: Five shots land within 1000m of 38cm guns. Entente ships begin to ZigZag. Germans switch fire to Bretagne, which takes light forward damage from a 28cm hit.

08:27: A 38cm magazine goes off killing over 60 men and silencing the gun. A 28cm shells explodes on the armor of the Bretagne and a 38cm shell destroys the middle turret.

08:28: A 35 cm shell hits one of the smoke stacks. Entente shells continue to fall near the 38 cm guns.

08:29: Fifty Entente fighters break off from the main air battle and begin strafing runs on the Ottoman 35cm guns, while chased by 20 Ottoman fighters. Bretagne hit by 38 cm guns that explodes in the engine spaces and a 28 cm shell that disables the 13.8 cm gun. The ship slows to 5 knots.

08:30: A second 38 cm gun is silenced. The HMS Bretagne is hit by a 38 cm in the forward turret, a 35cm in the bridge killing most of the senior officers, and a 28cm to the rudder.

08:31: Ottoman 28 cm and 35cm switch fire to BS #2, and the HMS Glory has a 35cm gun penetrate the main magazine, resulting in a fatal explosion.

08:32: HMS Vengeance takes two 35cm hits near the front turret, and the ships begins to flood forward. The ship turns on its smoke screen.

08:33 Bretagne hit by 38cm near water line, and begins to rapidly flood. The crew begins to abandon ship. HMS Vengence has 28cm explode on armor plate.

08:34: A third 38 cm is taken out of action. A near miss by a 35cm cause aft flooding. All Entente ships order to disengage and turn on smoke screen.

08:35 A 35cm shell has a glancing blow off the Provence.

08:37: A 15cm Ottoman magazine explodes.

08:38: HMS Jupiter is lost to 35cm hit on main magazine.

08:41: HMS Caesar hit by plunging fire to engine room. The ships stops.

08:43: HMS Caesar hit by 2 35cm shells, and smoke screen is blown away my massive explosion.

08:45: HMS Albion hit by plunging fire from 38cm, and dies in main magazine explosion.

08:49: Provence hit by 38 cm shell and loses its rear turret.

08:51: Eight torpedo planes escorted by 16 other planes attack HMS Ocean and they hit with two torpedoes. The Ocean slowly begins to sink.

08:53: HMS Vengeance hit in forward spaces by 35cm.

08:54: HMS Vengeance hit twice more.

08:55: Ottomans switch to High Explosive shells.

08:56: HMS Vengeance hit 3 more times, and comes do a dead stop.

08:57: HMS Vengeance hit four more times, and it's clearly sinking.

08:59: Ottomans switch back to AP shells and the Bretagne.

09:05: Twenty three hits later, the Bretagne sinks below the waves.

09:11: HMS Vengence sinks.

09:21: HMS Albion sinks.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...hips_of_France

Comments welcomed.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by TradeMachine

If Germany wins this war will there be a WW2. I see a future pacific war after Japan has conquered China, but WW2. I see France as powerful as Spain and Continues civil war in Russia. If in the end of the war France is treated like Germany and AH were treated in OTL, this WW2 will be a lot different if there is one.

P.S. The map was great thanks. Can you make a full political map of Africa for the beginning of 1917.

Yes, I plan to take it to a future war, but I am not sure it will be a true world war. I might go with just a naval war. I just have not even started thinking on this part.

It is quite easy to visualize Africa. Germany has everything from Togoland (Benin) to SWA Africa (Nambia) excluding French Congo, Spanish Equitoral Africa and Belgium Congo. Germany also has Tanzania.

[Keith Robertsson]

By Tanzania, do you mean both Tanganyika (the mainland portion) and Zanzibar (the island). Tanzania wasn't used until after independence in 1964 when the two entities united.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Keith Robertsson

By Tanzania, do you mean both Tanganyika (the mainland portion) and Zanzibar (the island). Tanzania wasn't used until after independence in 1964 when the two entities united.

I mean German East Africa.

[Keith Robertsson]

That's the Tanganyika portion.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

I mean German East Africa.

[jrecoi]

So for the loss of three quarters of their 38cm guns, half of their 28cm guns, and three 15cm guns, the Ottomans manage to take out 9 capital ships out of 24, the French got lucky with one ship lost and one damaged.

The breakdown for Entente losses is:

BS #1 - None taken and completely intact.

BS #2 - All ships sunk.

BS #3 - Two ships lost.

FS #4 - One ship lost, one damaged.

The Ottoman losing a roughly half of their heavier caliber (38cm 35 cm 28cm) guns will make a second round more difficult for them. On the other hand, the Entente lost a full squadron as well as a significant chunk of another squadron. A second attack on Duba will have to involve BS #1.

The Canopus class, of which BS #2 was mostly composed of was considered to have rather light armor, an aspect that was fixed by BS #1's Formidables. With this in mind, why wasn't BS #1 put into counterbattery duty, given that it had the best armor? Had it been done, the loss total would have been less for the Entente. BS #1 made a few initial salutory salvoes and seemingly disappeared for the rest of the battle.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by jrecoi

So for the loss of three quarters of their 38cm guns, half of their 28cm guns, and three 15cm guns, the Ottomans manage to take out 9 capital ships out of 24, the French got lucky with one ship lost and one damaged.

The breakdown for Entente losses is:

BS #1 - None taken and completely intact.

BS #2 - All ships sunk.

BS #3 - Two ships lost.

FS #4 - One ship lost, one damaged.

The Ottoman losing a roughly half of their heavier caliber (38cm 35 cm 28cm) guns will make a second round more difficult for them. On the other hand, the Entente lost a full squadron as well as a significant chunk of another squadron. A second attack on Duba will have to involve BS #1.

The Canopus class, of which BS #2 was mostly composed of was considered to have rather light armor, an aspect that was fixed by BS #1's Formidables. With this in mind, why wasn't BS #1 put into counterbattery duty, given that it had the best armor? Had it been done, the loss total would have been less for the Entente. BS #1 made a few initial salutory salvoes and seemingly disappeared for the rest of the battle.

Yes, 9 Capitals.

I don't see a second attack on Duba. The Ottoman had concentrated their troops (3 of 4 divisions) and their guns on the railhead/port at Duba. The point of the attack was destroy the port and railhead, along with damaging/interdicting the 3 divisions in the area to allow the landing 30 miles to the south. So imagine using 16 battleships on Calais to divert German Forces for D-Day. They also wanted to force the Ottoman Air Force out to fight with heavy losses.

As to why used Canopus, all the ships were within range of the coastal guns and vice versa. With the weak deck armor of the pre-dreads, it was decided to fight the battle a few miles from shore. My research indicates that either the 38 cm or 35 cm guns would easily penetrate any pre-dreads armor, especially if plunging fire.

As to why the operation, the British are getting desperate as the merchant fleet is being rapidly sunk, and are trying to improve things. It was too great a risk to land the divisions without a diversion, and the British anticipated lighter losses. I did not find a lot of historical battleship to coastal gun battles.

[BlondieBC]

Attached is the map as the battle was fought.

Red = Entente
Blue = CP

Triangle = location of corps.

Green Line = Railroad to Duba.
Orange Line = Front Lines.
Purple Lines = Entente attack Plan. They are trying to isolate Medina and to break into the railroad where most of the Ottoman air planes and supplies are located.

[highwayhoss]

Thanks for the Red Sea updates....you answered a number of questions I had regarding force deployments and the progress of the campaign.

I find this campaign fascinating because of the fact there is no OTL counterpart to it.

BTW I was wondering; have you made any decision who is in command of Entente and CP forces in the Red Sea area?

[Detlef]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

I mean German East Africa.

Are you sure about this?
Zanzibar, Pemba and Mafia island pretty much blockade German East Africa. At least all the locations where a German naval base after the war might be built.
Without the islands any thought of German naval influence / presence in the Indian Ocean or Pacific ocean would be questionable?

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Detlef

Are you sure about this?
Zanzibar, Pemba and Mafia island pretty much blockade German East Africa. At least all the locations where a German naval base after the war might be built.
Without the islands any thought of German naval influence / presence in the Indian Ocean or Pacific ocean would be questionable?

I am just giving what the Germans currently hold.

Now the UK is trying to make the Indian Ocean free of German influence. How well it works is a different matter, but German is developing a much larger Atlantic focus in the colonies.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by highwayhoss

BTW I was wondering; have you made any decision who is in command of Entente and CP forces in the Red Sea area?

No, I assume the basic corp commanders from OTL, with a little bit of randomizaton.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by Detlef

Are you sure about this?
Zanzibar, Pemba and Mafia island pretty much blockade German East Africa. At least all the locations where a German naval base after the war might be built.
Without the islands any thought of German naval influence / presence in the Indian Ocean or Pacific ocean would be questionable?

Even if the Germans concentrate on the Atlantic after the war - which is reasonable given their conquests there - they'll want to build up a sizeable naval presence in the Indian ocean, and naturally Tanganjika is the place of choice. They'll try something with Sansibar to get feet on the ground before the war ends.

Aside from that, naval bases may be leased from South Africa after the war. And while the British will have an interest in keeping the Germans out of the Indian ocean and the Pacific, the French will have more direct interests at home and might give up territories there to establish German naval outposts. In the Indian ocean, that encompasses Madagascar and Djibouti - very nice bases.

[highwayhoss]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

No, I assume the basic corp commanders from OTL, with a little bit of randomizaton.

Ok so no overall theater commander then, I assume.

Anyway, one thing that comes to mind looking at your map is the British logistical situation; the Red Sea amphibious operations in particular. I am assuming that the supply lines are running through the "choke points" of the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aden. From what I see, it would be hard to move large quantities of shipping through those narrow waters, especially with German U-Boats and other CP forces attacking the supply convoys.
Also if these operations are anything like Gallipoli IOTL, the British are probably having problems offloading and organizing supplies on the beach head and transporting them to the frontline troops.
Another problem is the loss of shipping by the British due to U-Boats; I am assuming large amounts of shipping being diverted to these operations (including converting their large liners into troop carriers). This, however leads to less shipping available for supplying England with food etc.

Overall, I can see the operations easily bogged down in logistical problems.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by highwayhoss

Ok so no overall theater commander then, I assume.

Anyway, one thing that comes to mind looking at your map is the British logistical situation; the Red Sea amphibious operations in particular. I am assuming that the supply lines are running through the "choke points" of the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aden. From what I see, it would be hard to move large quantities of shipping through those narrow waters, especially with German U-Boats and other CP forces attacking the supply convoys.
Also if these operations are anything like Gallipoli IOTL, the British are probably having problems offloading and organizing supplies on the beach head and transporting them to the frontline troops.
Another problem is the loss of shipping by the British due to U-Boats; I am assuming large amounts of shipping being diverted to these operations (including converting their large liners into troop carriers). This, however leads to less shipping available for supplying England with food etc.

Overall, I can see the operations easily bogged down in logistical problems.

No, I know the structure, I just did not assign leaders, because it is too much detail. The Sinai forces are under one army, so I guess we can call it the First British Army of Egypt. The 3 corps in what is now Saudi Arabia, is say the First British Army of Arabia. And the East Africa corps are the East African Army.

In reality, they probably would have numbers such as the 4th, 5th and 6th Armies. There would also be a Field Marshall over all the forces in Egypt, Arabia, and East Africa, so I guess we could call this Army Group Middle East.

Yes, the supplying is quite difficult, and you can see some very high losses to the U-boats and Air Planes a few months back, but the losses are declining. As the UK neutralizes each possible port, and get forces on both sides of the Red Sea, the losses go down. I have about 3000 airplanes in the Army Group Middle East Area for Entente, which makes it hard on U-boats. The problem for the Germans is that they are now using Sub-tenders near south Africa as bases to support the attacks, since they no longer have multiple ports to supply the ships. The reason Duba was attacked with such heavy losses is the UK can't allow a resupply base on a rail head to exist in the Red Sea. The UK plan is slowly working, at of course, the cost of weakness in France and heavy casualties.

[BlondieBC]

06:00: The over 3000 Entente airplanes stationed in the area have driven all 50 U-boats deep. One squadron is guarding the Gulf of Aqaba and one is guarding the Gulf of Suez. Another Squadron is patrolling the length of the Arabian coast of the Red Sea. The remainder are racing from the Indian Ocean to join the battle.

07:45: An UX-126 Class runs into a minefield maneuvering to avoid air patrols and escorts in the Gulf of Suez.

08:30: German radio towers begin broadcasting orders to the Gulf of Aqaba squadron to intercept the Entente capital ships and the Gulf of Suez to hold position. The instructions are not received.

10:00: Germans issue new orders to all forces but the Gulf of Suez Squadron to attacking the amphibious forces. The orders are not received.

10:37: An UX-126 Class is rammed while making an attack run on the French battleships.

11:15: An UX-126 hits the French Vergniard with a full spread of torpedoes, and the French ships sinks rapidly.

01:00 PM: The Ottoman launch a max effort air raid, 100 fighters, 25 bombers, and 10 torpedo planes, against the 4 carriers escorting the amphibious forces. The land based Ottoman fighters achieve air superiority against the seaplanes and wheeled planes guarding the task force. The British fighters manage to destroy 5 bombers and 1 torpedo planes. The two CLAAs escorting each carrier are devastating on the slow, low flying Ottoman planes swarming the carriers, and only 30 fighters, 5 bombers, and 3 torpedo planes return to the Ottoman airfields. The carriers are hit by two torpedoes, 7 100 KG bombs and 150 10KG bombs which results in the sinking of 3 carriers.

04:00 PM: All Battleships have cleared the Area of Operation of the Suez Squadron of U-boats.

04:30 PM: The Germans orders all U-boats to intercept the amphibious forces.

06:00 PM: The U-boats begin to surface and receive their orders. One UX-42 is lost when it accidentally surfaces near an escort ship. During the night, 21 of the U-boast will be able to reach the Amphibious Task Force.

09:00 PM: Twelve UX-126 begin an wolfpack attack on the amphibious forces, and two of the U-boats will be lost to minefields and six to escorts. The British will lose the last carrier, two CLAA, 1 freighter, and 3 escorts.

Next Day, 03:00: The U-boat attack is called off for the night.

11:00: The Entente convoy has completed unloading, with the two divisions mostly ashore, and begins to head back towards the Suez. During the remainder of the day, the British loses 1 light cruisers, 2 escorts, and two freighters. The Germans lose 3 more U-boats.

05:00 PM: The Germans issue orders for the U-boats to resume normal duties, and for the U-boats low on fuel to return to home ports. Aqaba, Duba, and Dar Es Salaam are judged as marginally functional.

Losses for the Battle:

Central Powers:

Duba largely destroyed with about half the shore guns non-operational. While all the guns can be put back into service, it will take weeks/months to unearth the guns and rebuild the forts. The railroad will also take weeks to repair due to lack of repair equipment in the area.

14 of the 50 U-boats.
400 of the 500 Fighters.
42 of the 50 Bombers.
27 of the 30 Torpedo Planes.

Entente Losses:

700 of the 1000 airplanes used. There were 2000 airplanes not used in the battle located in theater.

1 Dreadnought
9 Predreadnoughts
4 Light Carriers.
2 CLAA
1 Light cruisers
5 Escorts
3 Freighters

[wietze]

thats pretty heavy price to pay for the entente. Cp losses are mostly planes, which are much easier to replace than ships.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by wietze

thats pretty heavy price to pay for the entente. Cp losses are mostly planes, which are much easier to replace than ships.

Yes, I view it as a Entente loss. To me, it looked like a battle the Entente had to fight, so I took what was in theater under the overall commander, and wrote a battle. If the UK loses the Suez in addition to the South Pacific, they would starve in the winter of 1916/17. The Entente mostly lost predreads that are within a decade of leaving service, and converted cruiser hulls that are fairly easy to replace.

What did you think of the overall flow of the battle? It is not easy to find battles to model a Red Sea battle with.

[BlondieBC]

I am doing an overview of the issues in the British Middle East Army Group. Based on comments and how different this campaign is than OTL, a recap/summary seems useful. Over the summer, the CP were generally focused on the land war, but the German Navy was looking at a way to knock England out of the war. Prince Henry decided to hold back forces until he could launch a major escalation instead of slowly escalating. I have read posters who believe Germany should have done this in WW2, instead of doing things like using magnetic mines piece meal. I am not sure it was the wisest move, but it is a reasonable decision.

So, over the summer, the Ottomans extended the railroad from the interior line to Medina to the Duba. They also brought in the coastal guns with as much secrecy as possible and they built up supply depots. On September 1st, a co-ordinated attack designed to cripple the British war effort. The air attack on Scapa Flow was a diversion, and was hoped to get some lucky successes. It ended up just being a diversion. A-H contributed its older capital ships for raid at the same time, which achieve a minor success but resulted in the loss of 3 of the 6 ships. The goal of this raid combined with Red Sea activity was to cause the UK to shut the Suez canal at least temporarily. The Ottomans had built up bombers capable of carry 100KG bombs (Italian CA32) and some torpedo planes, and started hitting merchant convoys. Initial success were high, but rapidly decline as the Entente moved air planes to the region. Duba/Aqaba/Jeddah were to allow replenishment of ocean going U-boats, and allow UY, UZ, and gunboats to be launched directly into the Red Sea after rail transport. The Ottomans also started air dropping mines into the Suez Canal. For the month of September, the CP sank over 1.1 million tons of shipping, enough to quickly drive the UK out of the war.

In October, the UK rapidly switched focus to fixing the Red Sea. It would take time to get the forces in theater, so one does not see a lot of action in October by the British. The tonnage lost that month is over 1.0 million tons, again, crippling. Combined Red/Med Sea losses decline from 0.7 million to 0.4 million, which was largely offset by larger losses in other oceans as the RN rushed resources to the Middle East Command.

In November, we see the first raid on Duba, where the RN catches the Ottomans unprepared. The RN does lose 1 of 6 predreads, but it would be consider a victory. The additional five British Corps are in theater and we begin to see operations. The first push is to try to Blitz the Sinai, and cutoff Arabia. We have landings of the II Corp in the Southern Sinai, which quickly stalls. The IV corps starts capturing ports and anchorages from Yemen towards Medina. Total losses decline from 1.0 to 0.9 million tons, with the combined Red/Med Sea falling from 0.4 to 0.3 million tons. In a few months, the UK has cut the bleeding substantially.

In December, we see 6 predreads bombard Jedda with no losses. The Jedda landing is a textbook success. We see the two corps in East Africa begin a major push against the Germans with moderate success. Shipping losses are flat at 0.9 million tons, and combined Red/Med losses are similar to the previous two months.

January will become a bloody month. The Ottomans have failed to stop two previous naval assaults and a half dozen amphibious landings. They decide to do a max effort to hold on Duba. It is obvious to the Ottomans the UK will have to attack. It is obvious to the UK that the Ottomans know it is coming. The Entente sends 4 times as many capital ships. There are few ways to be subtle or to do flanking operations. Merchant losses decline to 0.8 million tons, and combined Red/Med Sea losses are 0.2 million. The UK has achieve a strategic success at very high tactical losses.

I hope this helps people understand the battle, and why it was necessary to take such high losses. The UK losses in the Red Sea Battle probably exceed any single two-day period in RN history in OTL, but it was fight or make peace.