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  #701  
Old April 25th, 2012, 08:38 AM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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Originally Posted by Detlef View Post
Tiny our TL nitpick allowed?
The German citizenship laws were changed years ago. From "blood" to "soil". Just thought I´d mention it once.
I remember that change - meaning that its a recent change.

And it's not really "soil". You can be born in Germany, lived there for decades, speak the language and have a university degree yet still you do not necessarily have citizenship.

And there's still a large "blood" aspect in how children of mixed German-Non-German parents or children born abroad are treated - far larger than in many other citizenship laws around the globe. In fact I'm not sure if all around the globe a kid will always get citizenship if one of its parents is a citizen - certainly in Western countries, but elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by Detlef View Post
German colonies in Africa - with the exception of South West Africa - already had an obligatory school attendance system including native children.
Including both missionary schools and government schools. Primary, secondary and vocational schools. Plus farming colleges.
Thanks for pointing that out!

It does not, however, invalidate my idea. The Germans wouldn't accept anybody as a citizen simply because he's gone through primary education in Cameroon. They might accept someone with university or college level education, though - even without him (or her) being in the military. At least the moderates could support that to decrease the conservative vote. I guess those public schools were mostly far away from providing the base of college level education? Thus more church-run and trade-union/SPD-run gymnasiums may come up, offering the chance to get to citizenship by education? The form of education you'd need to establish a (German speaking) middle class in the colonies.

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Originally Posted by Detlef View Post
The only exception was the "settler" colony South West Africa. As in (this TL former British colony) South Africa the somewhat larger group of German settlers and Dutch Boers in South West Africa didn´t favor education for the natives.

There was even a fight between the Colonial Office in Berlin/Germany and the local authorities in German South West Africa.

Given the scarcity of European women many men married native women. Which the local colonial administration refused to recognize as legal and official. The Colonial Office ordered them to recognize these marriages. Resulting in obedience at first and then passive resistance. Meaning that 1-2 years later the original problem resurfaced.
My guess is that this already butterflied away to some extent. In preparation of the outposts and native troops, the Germans already had to change their policies with respect to the natives. Now with the war and more and more natives becoming citizens this will change further.

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Originally Posted by Detlef View Post
It´s much more likely that some colonies will become independent while others choose to become a state in Germany.
Absolutely. Even if policies regarding the natives have changed, racism will still be widespread. A stipend system that gets more and more blacks into Germany (likely supported by the moderates in the Reichstag, but also by the military needing experts) will help this. It should also increase the number of mixed marriages in Germany proper, increasing its acceptance overall. The gradual approach of more and more blacks entering the legislature will do the same: there'll be a couple of thousand new citizens in Africa soon. those will marry, have children, will be joined by new recruits and citizens which got the franchise thanks to maneuvering of the moderate parties. Still, this will take years to have an effect - good to get used to it for the average German. As I don't see major independence movements threatening German rule within the next 30 years, you have a whole generation to get accustomed to Black politicians. Now if you had Southwest becoming a state within 10 years - which is possible IMHO - that will only smoothen that accustomization. It would be cool to have a Prime Minister of a state sitting in the secondary chamber with mixed Jewish-Herero ancestry in 1950...

The basic idea therefore is to get a black minority to Germany, and a mixed white-black state in Africa soon. That increases the chances of having a black majority state accepted, and thus increases the overall chances of colonies staying within Germany. The rest may go into a commonwealth with the Emperor as head of state.

Note though that ITTL, economic ties of Germany to its colonies will be very tight, simply because the colonial economies will be far higher developped. It's thus most likely that the independent colonies enter a free trade zone and also keep the Reichsmark as currency. And thanks to that development the independent nations should have a larger middle class, speaking Germany at least as secondary language. That makes the independent states politically more stable and binds them culturally to Germany.

---

Considering emmigration of Eastern Jews/other refugees: So far, BlondieBC concentrated on voluntary migration - which worked fine so far. I doubt though that the majority of Jewish migration will be completely voluntary. The problem will soon be that their homelands don't want to keep them, and Germany or Austria won't accept them all - at least not in Galicia and Traken-Memelland. Shipping them to the colonies is something different, though...

Last edited by Monty Burns; April 25th, 2012 at 09:13 AM..
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  #702  
Old April 25th, 2012, 09:25 AM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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In that time the Reichs- und Staatsangehöirgkeitsgesetz (RuStAG) determined, how to be or become a German:

1. You needed to be subject of one of the member states of Germany.

2. If you were a child, you were German, if your father was a German. If your mother was a German only, if she was not married, as usually the wife became the statehood of the man.

3. Just as I said, the wife became the citizenship of the Reich. OTOH, the German wife of a foreigner lost it (when she was divorced or her husband died, she could come back)

4. As a foreigner you could become a German, if you had done no crime, had a flat, an income to feed yourself and your dear ones.

5. As foreigner you could become a German by entering the official services.

Today:

Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (Only the Reich was deleted in the name. It is still the same law.)

1. Birth: If one of your parents is a German, you are a German as well. If you was found a a baby or small child, it is assumed you are a German, until the assumption could be disproven. If your parents are in Germany for over 8 years, you can also become a German (if your parents are foreigners logically.)

2. Adoption as child.

3. German displaced persons and immigrants (as long as they are no Germans in the sense of the RuStAG).

4. Naturalisation: Like before.

5. There are some more alterations, in which a naturalisation was made easier.

Adler
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  #703  
Old April 25th, 2012, 12:22 PM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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Thanks Adler!

I wonder though how colonial subjects come into that? I guess they were neither foreigners nor German citizens? Based upon the wording all Askaris should have been German citizens even IOTL, right?

In any case, this implies that - assuming no further changes were made to the code ITTL - all wives of black soldiers and their kids are Germans as well, at least after some time of service. With several divisions, this would already count up to quite a number.

Point 4 and 5 IMHO need only some practical clarification, then they could be used for colonial subjects by the moderates: anyone in the colonies with regular income and proper housing may become a citizen. This could be specified in such a way that only middle class colonials with European-style housing and profession are allowed. Liberals will ensure that entrepreneurs are eligible, SPD will ensure that skilled workers are eligible.
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  #704  
Old April 25th, 2012, 01:42 PM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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Indeed, subjects of the colonies could become Germans as Reich citizens (and not citizens of the states). That happened in some cases.

But be aware, if you give all of the subjects of the colonies a full citizenship, then you will have de facto no colony any more, but the motherland.

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  #705  
Old April 25th, 2012, 02:21 PM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
Indeed, subjects of the colonies could become Germans as Reich citizens (and not citizens of the states). That happened in some cases.
Now that is another interesting point. Did these citizens have representation in the state chamber?

We already discussed that most German states would support measures that decrease the relative power of Prussia in that chamber. With many Reich-citizens demanding representation, that could be a strong lobby for colonial statehood.

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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
But be aware, if you give all of the subjects of the colonies a full citizenship, then you will have de facto no colony any more, but the motherland.
That won't happen. BlondieBC already made clear that citizenship is limited at first. I think we agree, though, that it will be gradually expanded - due to new citizens marrying, having children, and the non-conservatives trying to get an electoral base on their own in hte colonies (the whole soldiers get a vote thing is at large parts a conservative plot).

I just wondered how the colonies were treated, since the list you kindly prevented does only mention foreigners and Germans. Obviously colonial subjects are therefore a third group, since otherwise there should have been far more citizens in the colony.

Since we are about discussing constitutional things: what about a constitutional court? AFAIK, Imperial Germany had none - at least not comparable to the FRG constitutional court. Since there'll be many constitutional changes to come, this may be added to the list. Or some existing institution might emerge as a replacement and gain more power?
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  #706  
Old April 25th, 2012, 04:24 PM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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Well, the subjects of the colonies were at first subjects of these colonies. But they could easier become Germans. However, I don't have the time to look that up (would be a very interesting topic for a juristical essay though).

Anyway, if there is a kind of limited citizenship, to be honest, I have doubts how that would work.

A constitutional court was proposed in 1848 but not in 1867/71. One reason was, that the civil rights were to be granted by the member states. On this way the Prussian Oberverwaltungsgericht became a kind of constitutional court as well (note: The Reichsverwaltungsgericht (administrational law) was proposed for years but not introduced until a certain Austrian was in power). So I think to have a constitutional court would work.

Adler
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  #707  
Old April 25th, 2012, 04:32 PM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
Anyway, if there is a kind of limited citizenship, to be honest, I have doubts how that would work.
What do you mean?
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  #708  
Old April 25th, 2012, 09:41 PM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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It would be a citizenship of 2nd class, which would not be that different to the existing citizenship of the colonial subjects. So what shall be out of this citizenship?

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  #709  
Old April 25th, 2012, 10:36 PM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty Burns View Post
It does not, however, invalidate my idea. The Germans wouldn't accept anybody as a citizen simply because he's gone through primary education in Cameroon. They might accept someone with university or college level education, though - even without him (or her) being in the military. At least the moderates could support that to decrease the conservative vote. I guess those public schools were mostly far away from providing the base of college level education? Thus more church-run and trade-union/SPD-run gymnasiums may come up, offering the chance to get to citizenship by education? The form of education you'd need to establish a (German speaking) middle class in the colonies.
As to African citizenship, Germany reasonable progressive for the day, but very racists by our standards. If you are white, you just have to be able to speak German and be loyal to Germany. If you are black, you have to perform a great service for Germany and speak German. Right now that is fighting in the war effort and after the war it is a long-term enlistment in the German military. Being drafted and serving for a couple of years does not get you their, you have to be a career solider. Now I intentionally left a lot of lose ends because I think that is what controversial legislation, rapidly written in wartime normally looks like. The provision had two purposes. One to prevent a coup by the black officer corp. Two, to try to draw mostly German immigrants from South America and the USA. At least in South America, the is light persecution of the German culture in Brazil. And like in life, emergency measure designed to solve one issue will create other issues. An Zimmermann copied the existing system from French West Africa, but made it more restrictive. In French West Africa, learning French and converting to Christianity made you a voting Frenchman, until it was cracked down on.

On the rest of the ideas, they are good, but I am taking them one month at a time. Often how something passes in a Democracy is based as much on timing as content. For example, leave the entire issue of Poland to a post war time frame, and we will get a much different result.

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Originally Posted by Monty Burns View Post
Now that is another interesting point. Did these citizens have representation in the state chamber?

That won't happen. BlondieBC already made clear that citizenship is limited at first. I think we agree, though, that it will be gradually expanded - due to new citizens marrying, having children, and the non-conservatives trying to get an electoral base on their own in hte colonies (the whole soldiers get a vote thing is at large parts a conservative plot).
As to the state chamber, nothing was changed under legislation that has been passed. The people in Africa have at large seats in the "Imperial Colonial Zone".

The rest of the stuff will have to be dealt with later. I thought the changes in the bill were radical enough.


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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
It would be a citizenship of 2nd class, which would not be that different to the existing citizenship of the colonial subjects. So what shall be out of this citizenship?

Adler
Yes, FM Zimmermann was building on the colonial base. For a black soldier, the he gains rights to live in Germany, rights to vote, and the other rights of a German Colonist. So if he commits a crime, he would get the same treatment of white German, not the much harsher treatment given to natives. I have to double check, but I think they are still tying blacks to post and whipping them like slaves. And if that was changed near the war, it is in living memory. And for a Nigerian or Angola, it is a huge step up.

It also gives Germans in Brazil the ability to regain citizenship. Right now, all the immigration comes from the Western hemisphere. The only Germans from Germany going to Africa arrive via the UM U-boat or the extraordinarily rare Zeppelin trip, and those people are just being order there.

There a huge issue that remain in the future. The major push in the Chancellor office was the need to insure this 200,000+ man army with black officers remains loyal to Germany. You could lose the war if they pulled a South Africa.
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  #710  
Old April 26th, 2012, 07:41 AM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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I think, if a black conscript was decorated or hurt badly he should get the same advantages. The same has to be said for others, like a black overseer, who pushed his team to build a train line before schedule.

Adler
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  #711  
Old April 26th, 2012, 08:18 AM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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I think, if a black conscript was decorated or hurt badly he should get the same advantages. The same has to be said for others, like a black overseer, who pushed his team to build a train line before schedule.
True. These are amendments which are likely to be enacted already during war times.

BlondieBC is right that many of these measures will have to be adapted lateron. Moderates promoting voter's rights for non soldiers will probably happen only after the first vote turns out to be very conservative. Statehood as an option will only emerge with time, when the number of colonial voters (blacks and white immigrants alike) surpasses that of smaller states (shouldn't take long, though).

In any case I expect there to be major constitutional reforms after the war. The moderates will present a bill for supporting the government, the successes of the Socialists will continue, there'll be a wide coalition who wants to limit the power of the Emperor. Probably nobody will consider the fast growing group of colonial voters in all this until something happens. My guess is that courts will more and more shape the state, with colonials and others going to court to clarify chaotic legislation.
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  #712  
Old April 26th, 2012, 09:32 AM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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And some may find it shocking to see black parlamentarians. I think that would happen much faster now. Perhaps also nobled blacks...

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  #713  
Old April 26th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Monty Burns Monty Burns is offline
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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
And some may find it shocking to see black parlamentarians. I think that would happen much faster now. Perhaps also nobled blacks...

Adler
Probably this is avoided for the time being by assigning the black voters to different constituencies.

In any case, racist setbacks are likely. Germany will soon see a sharp rise of black citizens as well as ethnically non-German eastern Europeans and many Jews. More and more colonial subjects will resettle to the motherland as well (some may come state-sponsored by a stipend system or military/civil service exchange). If they cope with that development, the system will be capable of taking in more and more "strangers".

Considering nobled black: sooner or later there'll be one. And it would be an important symbolic figure. I'm not sure though whether this war already sees a nobled black - besides local kings and princes getting German ranks. What we will see, though, is several black bearers of medals such as the Pour le mérité. It would be a nice film to depict the Kaiser giving out these honours to his brave black subjects.

Last edited by Monty Burns; April 26th, 2012 at 12:28 PM..
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  #714  
Old April 27th, 2012, 03:29 AM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty Burns View Post
Probably this is avoided for the time being by assigning the black voters to different constituencies.
Can't be done. SWA, the most settled area. Maybe 30,000 whites (all ages). Around 50,000 soldiers and 50,000 wives (95% black and all voters.). Now at least here a talented white politician has a good chance of winning the seat.

German East Africa -6K-9K Whites, say 5K voters. 45,000 black soldiers and 45,000 wives. Now maybe on of the white Generals could win the one seat. Hard to carry with 5% of the population. I see most likely either one white, one black officer wins a seat, or 2 native seats.

Kamerun District - Could be up to 20,000 whites, have not done full work, so say 10,000 white voters. But 230,000 land combat soldiers, another 15,000 or so naval, so near 500,000 black voters spread over 5-7 seats. There is also the issue of do the 100,000 or so black railroad workers count as "military".

Princedom of Traken-Memelland - Will likely have some Eastern Jewish person elected to Reichstag.


If you think your society is ideal, never fight a long, large war. It will always come out much different than you entered it, and many of these changes will be irreversible.

Quote:
In any case, racist setbacks are likely. Germany will soon see a sharp rise of black citizens as well as ethnically non-German eastern Europeans and many Jews. More and more colonial subjects will resettle to the motherland as well (some may come state-sponsored by a stipend system or military/civil service exchange). If they cope with that development, the system will be capable of taking in more and more "strangers".

Considering nobled black: sooner or later there'll be one. And it would be an important symbolic figure. I'm not sure though whether this war already sees a nobled black - besides local kings and princes getting German ranks. What we will see, though, is several black bearers of medals such as the Pour le mérité. It would be a nice film to depict the Kaiser giving out these honours to his brave black subjects.
Now to Noble Blacks. Before the war, about 3 people per year were made nobles. I figure in a war, it might increase to 12, so we are looking at 25 or so new nobles, and Von Schultze is the only one I have specifically done. Zimmermann is due, but this problem comes at the end of his victory parade in Berlin after the war. Probably will have a few to industrialist, a few to powerful people in Traken-Memelland. So likely there should be some black officers who is made a noble, but it just seems like too big of a leap during this war. Even if the public calls for heroes of Africa, there are plenty of white generals to give the award too. I think more likely the first black nobles will be powerful African ruler who need to be made more loyal to Germany, not war heroes, and likely later than now. Though if I happen to find the perfect candidate, I would go ahead and do it.

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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
I think, if a black conscript was decorated or hurt badly he should get the same advantages. The same has to be said for others, like a black overseer, who pushed his team to build a train line before schedule.

Adler

It is not an issue during this war because fighting gets you citizenship, but yes, it will be an issue as soon as the first tribal rebellion has to be put down.
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  #715  
Old April 27th, 2012, 08:17 AM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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Perhaps there is one:

Alexander Douala-Bell. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Douala-Bell He was officer in the Ulm Ulan regiment and fought bravely at Gallipoli. Furthermore he is the son of the king of the Douala people in Kamerun. His father was executed by the Germans for "treason", but he remained loyal. Also as the Douala supported the Entente because of the execution, indeed the Rudolf Manga Bell, his father, peacefully defended his people against a displacement ordered by the German authorities. So if this did not happen in this TL, Alexander would be still a prince of a very loyal tribe. To bind it tighter to Germany, his father could become a kind of titular king, so having only the right to be called royal majesty. His son could also become the German title of a Graf von Bell. So his name would be then Graf Alexander von Bell, Titularprinz von Douala. Eventually the king of the Douala could be recognized as a full German title later, perhaps after the stateshood of Kamerun as a German state.

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  #716  
Old April 28th, 2012, 09:06 PM
corditeman corditeman is offline
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Cool Read to Page 13, jumped to this...

...A lot of the U-boat work reminded me of my Heligoland TLs interwar development of seaplane carriers/submarine depot ships and covert U-boat squadron deployments by Germany. I was impressed by the 'diamond' tactics, but felt that little use was being made of landplane carrier potential. Still, only at page 13..

...Submarine development was fairly uniform OTL, so a drastic POD was needed. You did that well, Blondie...

...Regarding the North Sea battles, I was left to compare my use of U-boat groups (not wolf-packs) and Zeppelin bombing, with your remarkable U-boat co-ordination by Zeppelins. And I got a lot of flak over my ideas. Thanks for continuing. But I think you maybe sank/damaged too many fleet units in too short a time. Operation Beatitude was the only WW1 operation that could have swept the field, in the absence of a worse Jutland battle...

...And the fog of war means you get defeats on both sides - losing a handful of U-boats over months is not the same thing. Minefields can cause tremendous dislocation...

...I'll keep reading this TL and try to get up to date...

...You have received one nomination for the Cordite Medal for Inspired Ideas. After five nominations, add CMII to your sig.

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  #717  
Old April 28th, 2012, 10:17 PM
BlondieBC BlondieBC is offline
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...A lot of the U-boat work reminded me of my Heligoland TLs interwar development of seaplane carriers/submarine depot ships and covert U-boat squadron deployments by Germany. I was impressed by the 'diamond' tactics, but felt that little use was being made of landplane carrier potential. Still, only at page 13..
Von Schultze was only control of the U-boat budget prewar, and the budget was only slightly larger than OTL (single digit % from memory), so I am looking at a couple of daily combat logs from OTL to see when to bring in air power. I did not see a lot of attacks until 1916, mostly in the Baltic and Black Sea. It is around late 1916, when the first bombing run with land base planes. So to keep realistic, it takes a while for the butterflies to be seen in air power at sea. I did one attack on Scapa Flow with carriers, which compares to the planned 1919 attack by Adm Betty (OTL). I am heading towards a much stronger carrier/U-boat operations focus in the 1920's, but some things just take time. It took me until last month to move Von Schultze into the head of the Germany Navy. Considering that he us under 40, it is a meteoric rise, even with huge wartime success and sponsorship by a Prince. And to change the attitude of the German Navy, takes replacing the upper leadership.

Now to the diamond tactics, they became AMC and a U-boat, mainly because of shortages of U-boats. Since there were plenty of targets outside of the convoys, the wolf pack tactics have been limited, but they are being used. Again, one needs a certain ratio of U-boats to ocean to have enough density to bring them out, and it also does not make sense until convoys are common enough. It is like a lion hunting, why hunt the Cape Buffalo with a big bull protecting the herd, when you can find weak, isolated Buffalo to kill.

Quote:
...Submarine development was fairly uniform OTL, so a drastic POD was needed. You did that well, Blondie...

...Regarding the North Sea battles, I was left to compare my use of U-boat groups (not wolf-packs) and Zeppelin bombing, with your remarkable U-boat co-ordination by Zeppelins. And I got a lot of flak over my ideas. Thanks for continuing. But I think you maybe sank/damaged too many fleet units in too short a time. Operation Beatitude was the only WW1 operation that could have swept the field, in the absence of a worse Jutland battle...
I think you may have persuaded people that Zeppelins worked well, or maybe they just did not read this TL.

I was intending to kill fewer ships in the initial battle, it was just going to be a raid on Scapa Flow, but when I looked at the actual locations and preparations of the Grand Fleet, they were horribly prepared. I believe that Adm Kimmel did a better job than the British Admirals. The difference is luck is where opportunity meets preparation. IOTL WW2, the opportunity of a poorly defended Pearl Harbor met the preparation of the Japanese. IOTL WW1, the opportunity of the horribly prepare RN met and equally unprepared High Seas Fleet. In this ATL, the opportunity of a horribly prepared RN met an U-boat fleet under a quality admiral who had them highly prepared, complete with a War Plan should war with the UK occur.

Virtually all capital ships of the RN spent a week sailing between Aberdeen and Norway with less than 2 squadrons of escorts. The Germans sent out 12 older U-boats that left kerosene smoke trails, and still had a good chance to sink 1-3 dreadnoughts. And the British had bad weather on their side. In this ATL, around 24 modern diesel U-boats were sent out, each under a captain with over 5 years experience as an officer on U-boats, and in a force were realistic U-boat drills were held.

IMO, IOTL, if the Germans had merely done a max sortie against the Grand Fleet, the Grand Fleet would have accepted battle, and the battle would been more costly to the RN than the Germans. The Germans had 140 torpedo boats and 44 U-boats. If one assume the battle would be somewhere south of Jutland, it is a battle where the Germans can easily retreat, but the RN will risk losing its capital fleet.

Quote:
...And the fog of war means you get defeats on both sides - losing a handful of U-boats over months is not the same thing. Minefields can cause tremendous dislocation...
Yes, there are butterflies both ways, such as the German army having much higher casualties than OTL in the early war. The problem comes with keeping it realistic. Prince Henry handled his fleet well. After the initial two victories, why risk another fight unless the odds are good. The RN largely abandoned the North Sea. Both sets of dreadnoughts are less active than OTL. A lot of the ATL is smaller ships being dominant, and larger capital ships being less active. There are some major battles, but most times I look at fighting a major battle, it does not make sense for one or both sides to offer battle. And if you look at the loss rate, you will see the UK is losing fewer capital ships after the first couple horrible months, partially due to taking escorting more seriously, and partially staying in port a lot more.
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  #718  
Old April 29th, 2012, 07:20 AM
corditeman corditeman is offline
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Cool AMC and U-boat pairs...

...Read Q-ship and submarine pairs, and you have a Great War ASW trick used by the Royal Navy's 'mystery ships' OTL. Decoy/bait plus sub killer. This developed into the concealed armaments of the 'Farnborough', 'Pargust' and 'Dunraven' type...

...You may be pleased to know that the first depth charge sinking of an admittedly-damaged submarine was by 'Farnborough' after a surface gun action that damaged the U-boat. One depth charge - and only one - was used, at close range. Commander Campbell saw a great rent in the U-boat's I think he was lucky not to sink his own ship...

...The 1917 era R-boats of the RN used a bow-mounted hydrophone array, not unlike the one I used on the U-boat in my TL. So, nothing too advanced...

...One torpedo, damaged, two torpedoes, sunk, seems a good ratio. Bearing in mind that a pistol-round is halted by six feet of water, I suggest that a submerged U-boat would be safe from a small chunk of debris. However, if it was a turret, or a gun-barrel... But our critics will say it's too Tom Clancy...

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Old April 29th, 2012, 12:42 PM
wietze wietze is offline
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Originally Posted by corditeman View Post
...One torpedo, damaged, two torpedoes, sunk, seems a good ratio. Bearing in mind that a pistol-round is halted by six feet of water, I suggest that a submerged U-boat would be safe from a small chunk of debris. However, if it was a turret, or a gun-barrel... But our critics will say it's too Tom Clancy...
mythbusters did some episodes on it, i think 3-4 feet stops all rifle bullets even a .50 most stuff that drops into the water slows down very quick due to drag. The most a sub would have to fear of debris would be the sheer mass of it.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 10:45 PM
Detlef Detlef is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty Burns View Post
In any case, racist setbacks are likely. Germany will soon see a sharp rise of black citizens as well as ethnically non-German eastern Europeans and many Jews. More and more colonial subjects will resettle to the motherland as well (some may come state-sponsored by a stipend system or military/civil service exchange). If they cope with that development, the system will be capable of taking in more and more "strangers".
Some of that will certainly happen.
The Pan-German League, the "Kreuzzeitung" newspaper and a percentage of the conservatives will have a collective heart attack.

However there are two mitigating circumstances here, I think.
First the Kaiser and his government are initiating these moves. Although they very likely underestimate some of the consequences. But anyway, they do it and probably won´t like outright discrimination or racism. Which means that teachers, public servants and law enforcement for example - taking their cue from the Kaiser - will not engage in overt racism. Probably even viewing it as disrespectful of the victorious Kaiser. Unpatriotic, distasteful...
Given that these people are (public opinion) "multiplicators" they quite likely influence other people too. It´s one thing to engage in discrimination or racism when you know that your government openly or secretly shares those views. It´s quite another thing when you know that your government frowns upon it.
And second, don´t forget the war losses. By now more than a million dead German soldiers. Which probably means that after the war there will be lot´s of jobs available. Germany managed to integrate and assimilate half a million Poles and Masurians in the Ruhr region who moved there before WW1. With jobs available, integrating more should be possible.

I agree that absolute numbers however will play a role in public perception. Too many too fast won´t work.
I don´t think we´ll see that many black citizens in Germany yet. Except maybe people with "stipends or military/civil service exchange". Given that the pension of retired black soldiers probably is pretty low by European standards I don´t quite see many of them retiring in Germany (higher cost of living).
"Non-German eastern Europeans". Do you mean refugees? As long as there are not too many and jobs are available (see above) it might be manageable.
The problem might be a mass movement of Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe. Both Austria-Hungary and Germany probably would like to limit that to a few hundred thousands? If more come then trying to resettle them in the German colonies might be the best option?
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