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#701
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And it's not really "soil". You can be born in Germany, lived there for decades, speak the language and have a university degree yet still you do not necessarily have citizenship. And there's still a large "blood" aspect in how children of mixed German-Non-German parents or children born abroad are treated - far larger than in many other citizenship laws around the globe. In fact I'm not sure if all around the globe a kid will always get citizenship if one of its parents is a citizen - certainly in Western countries, but elsewhere? Quote:
It does not, however, invalidate my idea. The Germans wouldn't accept anybody as a citizen simply because he's gone through primary education in Cameroon. They might accept someone with university or college level education, though - even without him (or her) being in the military. At least the moderates could support that to decrease the conservative vote. I guess those public schools were mostly far away from providing the base of college level education? Thus more church-run and trade-union/SPD-run gymnasiums may come up, offering the chance to get to citizenship by education? The form of education you'd need to establish a (German speaking) middle class in the colonies. Quote:
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The basic idea therefore is to get a black minority to Germany, and a mixed white-black state in Africa soon. That increases the chances of having a black majority state accepted, and thus increases the overall chances of colonies staying within Germany. The rest may go into a commonwealth with the Emperor as head of state. Note though that ITTL, economic ties of Germany to its colonies will be very tight, simply because the colonial economies will be far higher developped. It's thus most likely that the independent colonies enter a free trade zone and also keep the Reichsmark as currency. And thanks to that development the independent nations should have a larger middle class, speaking Germany at least as secondary language. That makes the independent states politically more stable and binds them culturally to Germany. --- Considering emmigration of Eastern Jews/other refugees: So far, BlondieBC concentrated on voluntary migration - which worked fine so far. I doubt though that the majority of Jewish migration will be completely voluntary. The problem will soon be that their homelands don't want to keep them, and Germany or Austria won't accept them all - at least not in Galicia and Traken-Memelland. Shipping them to the colonies is something different, though... Last edited by Monty Burns; April 25th, 2012 at 09:13 AM.. |
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#702
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In that time the Reichs- und Staatsangehöirgkeitsgesetz (RuStAG) determined, how to be or become a German:
1. You needed to be subject of one of the member states of Germany. 2. If you were a child, you were German, if your father was a German. If your mother was a German only, if she was not married, as usually the wife became the statehood of the man. 3. Just as I said, the wife became the citizenship of the Reich. OTOH, the German wife of a foreigner lost it (when she was divorced or her husband died, she could come back) 4. As a foreigner you could become a German, if you had done no crime, had a flat, an income to feed yourself and your dear ones. 5. As foreigner you could become a German by entering the official services. Today: Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (Only the Reich was deleted in the name. It is still the same law.) 1. Birth: If one of your parents is a German, you are a German as well. If you was found a a baby or small child, it is assumed you are a German, until the assumption could be disproven. If your parents are in Germany for over 8 years, you can also become a German (if your parents are foreigners logically.) 2. Adoption as child. 3. German displaced persons and immigrants (as long as they are no Germans in the sense of the RuStAG). 4. Naturalisation: Like before. 5. There are some more alterations, in which a naturalisation was made easier. Adler |
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#703
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Thanks Adler!
I wonder though how colonial subjects come into that? I guess they were neither foreigners nor German citizens? Based upon the wording all Askaris should have been German citizens even IOTL, right? In any case, this implies that - assuming no further changes were made to the code ITTL - all wives of black soldiers and their kids are Germans as well, at least after some time of service. With several divisions, this would already count up to quite a number. Point 4 and 5 IMHO need only some practical clarification, then they could be used for colonial subjects by the moderates: anyone in the colonies with regular income and proper housing may become a citizen. This could be specified in such a way that only middle class colonials with European-style housing and profession are allowed. Liberals will ensure that entrepreneurs are eligible, SPD will ensure that skilled workers are eligible. |
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#704
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Indeed, subjects of the colonies could become Germans as Reich citizens (and not citizens of the states). That happened in some cases.
But be aware, if you give all of the subjects of the colonies a full citizenship, then you will have de facto no colony any more, but the motherland. Adler |
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#705
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We already discussed that most German states would support measures that decrease the relative power of Prussia in that chamber. With many Reich-citizens demanding representation, that could be a strong lobby for colonial statehood. Quote:
I just wondered how the colonies were treated, since the list you kindly prevented does only mention foreigners and Germans. Obviously colonial subjects are therefore a third group, since otherwise there should have been far more citizens in the colony. Since we are about discussing constitutional things: what about a constitutional court? AFAIK, Imperial Germany had none - at least not comparable to the FRG constitutional court. Since there'll be many constitutional changes to come, this may be added to the list. Or some existing institution might emerge as a replacement and gain more power? |
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#706
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Well, the subjects of the colonies were at first subjects of these colonies. But they could easier become Germans. However, I don't have the time to look that up (would be a very interesting topic for a juristical essay though).
Anyway, if there is a kind of limited citizenship, to be honest, I have doubts how that would work. A constitutional court was proposed in 1848 but not in 1867/71. One reason was, that the civil rights were to be granted by the member states. On this way the Prussian Oberverwaltungsgericht became a kind of constitutional court as well (note: The Reichsverwaltungsgericht (administrational law) was proposed for years but not introduced until a certain Austrian was in power). So I think to have a constitutional court would work. Adler |
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#707
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What do you mean?
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#708
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It would be a citizenship of 2nd class, which would not be that different to the existing citizenship of the colonial subjects. So what shall be out of this citizenship?
Adler |
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#709
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On the rest of the ideas, they are good, but I am taking them one month at a time. Often how something passes in a Democracy is based as much on timing as content. For example, leave the entire issue of Poland to a post war time frame, and we will get a much different result. Quote:
The rest of the stuff will have to be dealt with later. I thought the changes in the bill were radical enough. Quote:
It also gives Germans in Brazil the ability to regain citizenship. Right now, all the immigration comes from the Western hemisphere. The only Germans from Germany going to Africa arrive via the UM U-boat or the extraordinarily rare Zeppelin trip, and those people are just being order there. There a huge issue that remain in the future. The major push in the Chancellor office was the need to insure this 200,000+ man army with black officers remains loyal to Germany. You could lose the war if they pulled a South Africa.
__________________
Prince Henry of Prussia: The Rise of the U-Boat http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=225455 |
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#710
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I think, if a black conscript was decorated or hurt badly he should get the same advantages. The same has to be said for others, like a black overseer, who pushed his team to build a train line before schedule.
Adler |
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#711
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BlondieBC is right that many of these measures will have to be adapted lateron. Moderates promoting voter's rights for non soldiers will probably happen only after the first vote turns out to be very conservative. Statehood as an option will only emerge with time, when the number of colonial voters (blacks and white immigrants alike) surpasses that of smaller states (shouldn't take long, though). In any case I expect there to be major constitutional reforms after the war. The moderates will present a bill for supporting the government, the successes of the Socialists will continue, there'll be a wide coalition who wants to limit the power of the Emperor. Probably nobody will consider the fast growing group of colonial voters in all this until something happens. My guess is that courts will more and more shape the state, with colonials and others going to court to clarify chaotic legislation. |
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#712
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And some may find it shocking to see black parlamentarians. I think that would happen much faster now. Perhaps also nobled blacks...
Adler |
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#713
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In any case, racist setbacks are likely. Germany will soon see a sharp rise of black citizens as well as ethnically non-German eastern Europeans and many Jews. More and more colonial subjects will resettle to the motherland as well (some may come state-sponsored by a stipend system or military/civil service exchange). If they cope with that development, the system will be capable of taking in more and more "strangers". Considering nobled black: sooner or later there'll be one. And it would be an important symbolic figure. I'm not sure though whether this war already sees a nobled black - besides local kings and princes getting German ranks. What we will see, though, is several black bearers of medals such as the Pour le mérité. It would be a nice film to depict the Kaiser giving out these honours to his brave black subjects. Last edited by Monty Burns; April 26th, 2012 at 12:28 PM.. |
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#714
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German East Africa -6K-9K Whites, say 5K voters. 45,000 black soldiers and 45,000 wives. Now maybe on of the white Generals could win the one seat. Hard to carry with 5% of the population. I see most likely either one white, one black officer wins a seat, or 2 native seats. Kamerun District - Could be up to 20,000 whites, have not done full work, so say 10,000 white voters. But 230,000 land combat soldiers, another 15,000 or so naval, so near 500,000 black voters spread over 5-7 seats. There is also the issue of do the 100,000 or so black railroad workers count as "military". Princedom of Traken-Memelland - Will likely have some Eastern Jewish person elected to Reichstag. If you think your society is ideal, never fight a long, large war. It will always come out much different than you entered it, and many of these changes will be irreversible. Quote:
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It is not an issue during this war because fighting gets you citizenship, but yes, it will be an issue as soon as the first tribal rebellion has to be put down.
__________________
Prince Henry of Prussia: The Rise of the U-Boat http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=225455 |
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#715
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Perhaps there is one:
Alexander Douala-Bell. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Douala-Bell He was officer in the Ulm Ulan regiment and fought bravely at Gallipoli. Furthermore he is the son of the king of the Douala people in Kamerun. His father was executed by the Germans for "treason", but he remained loyal. Also as the Douala supported the Entente because of the execution, indeed the Rudolf Manga Bell, his father, peacefully defended his people against a displacement ordered by the German authorities. So if this did not happen in this TL, Alexander would be still a prince of a very loyal tribe. To bind it tighter to Germany, his father could become a kind of titular king, so having only the right to be called royal majesty. His son could also become the German title of a Graf von Bell. So his name would be then Graf Alexander von Bell, Titularprinz von Douala. Eventually the king of the Douala could be recognized as a full German title later, perhaps after the stateshood of Kamerun as a German state. Adler |
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#716
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...A lot of the U-boat work reminded me of my Heligoland TLs interwar development of seaplane carriers/submarine depot ships and covert U-boat squadron deployments by Germany. I was impressed by the 'diamond' tactics, but felt that little use was being made of landplane carrier potential. Still, only at page 13..
...Submarine development was fairly uniform OTL, so a drastic POD was needed. You did that well, Blondie... ...Regarding the North Sea battles, I was left to compare my use of U-boat groups (not wolf-packs) and Zeppelin bombing, with your remarkable U-boat co-ordination by Zeppelins. And I got a lot of flak over my ideas. Thanks for continuing. But I think you maybe sank/damaged too many fleet units in too short a time. Operation Beatitude was the only WW1 operation that could have swept the field, in the absence of a worse Jutland battle... ...And the fog of war means you get defeats on both sides - losing a handful of U-boats over months is not the same thing. Minefields can cause tremendous dislocation... ...I'll keep reading this TL and try to get up to date... ...You have received one nomination for the Cordite Medal for Inspired Ideas. After five nominations, add CMII to your sig. Last edited by corditeman; April 29th, 2012 at 07:10 AM.. |
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#717
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Now to the diamond tactics, they became AMC and a U-boat, mainly because of shortages of U-boats. Since there were plenty of targets outside of the convoys, the wolf pack tactics have been limited, but they are being used. Again, one needs a certain ratio of U-boats to ocean to have enough density to bring them out, and it also does not make sense until convoys are common enough. It is like a lion hunting, why hunt the Cape Buffalo with a big bull protecting the herd, when you can find weak, isolated Buffalo to kill. Quote:
I was intending to kill fewer ships in the initial battle, it was just going to be a raid on Scapa Flow, but when I looked at the actual locations and preparations of the Grand Fleet, they were horribly prepared. I believe that Adm Kimmel did a better job than the British Admirals. The difference is luck is where opportunity meets preparation. IOTL WW2, the opportunity of a poorly defended Pearl Harbor met the preparation of the Japanese. IOTL WW1, the opportunity of the horribly prepare RN met and equally unprepared High Seas Fleet. In this ATL, the opportunity of a horribly prepared RN met an U-boat fleet under a quality admiral who had them highly prepared, complete with a War Plan should war with the UK occur. Virtually all capital ships of the RN spent a week sailing between Aberdeen and Norway with less than 2 squadrons of escorts. The Germans sent out 12 older U-boats that left kerosene smoke trails, and still had a good chance to sink 1-3 dreadnoughts. And the British had bad weather on their side. In this ATL, around 24 modern diesel U-boats were sent out, each under a captain with over 5 years experience as an officer on U-boats, and in a force were realistic U-boat drills were held. IMO, IOTL, if the Germans had merely done a max sortie against the Grand Fleet, the Grand Fleet would have accepted battle, and the battle would been more costly to the RN than the Germans. The Germans had 140 torpedo boats and 44 U-boats. If one assume the battle would be somewhere south of Jutland, it is a battle where the Germans can easily retreat, but the RN will risk losing its capital fleet. Quote:
__________________
Prince Henry of Prussia: The Rise of the U-Boat http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=225455 |
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#718
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...Read Q-ship and submarine pairs, and you have a Great War ASW trick used by the Royal Navy's 'mystery ships' OTL. Decoy/bait plus sub killer. This developed into the concealed armaments of the 'Farnborough', 'Pargust' and 'Dunraven' type...
...You may be pleased to know that the first depth charge sinking of an admittedly-damaged submarine was by 'Farnborough' after a surface gun action that damaged the U-boat. One depth charge - and only one - was used, at close range. Commander Campbell saw a great rent in the U-boat's I think he was lucky not to sink his own ship... ...The 1917 era R-boats of the RN used a bow-mounted hydrophone array, not unlike the one I used on the U-boat in my TL. So, nothing too advanced... ...One torpedo, damaged, two torpedoes, sunk, seems a good ratio. Bearing in mind that a pistol-round is halted by six feet of water, I suggest that a submerged U-boat would be safe from a small chunk of debris. However, if it was a turret, or a gun-barrel... But our critics will say it's too Tom Clancy... Last edited by corditeman; April 29th, 2012 at 08:06 AM.. |
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#719
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__________________
- AH.com where every writer is better than harry harrison - |
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#720
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The Pan-German League, the "Kreuzzeitung" newspaper and a percentage of the conservatives will have a collective heart attack. ![]() However there are two mitigating circumstances here, I think. First the Kaiser and his government are initiating these moves. Although they very likely underestimate some of the consequences. But anyway, they do it and probably won´t like outright discrimination or racism. Which means that teachers, public servants and law enforcement for example - taking their cue from the Kaiser - will not engage in overt racism. Probably even viewing it as disrespectful of the victorious Kaiser. Unpatriotic, distasteful... Given that these people are (public opinion) "multiplicators" they quite likely influence other people too. It´s one thing to engage in discrimination or racism when you know that your government openly or secretly shares those views. It´s quite another thing when you know that your government frowns upon it. And second, don´t forget the war losses. By now more than a million dead German soldiers. Which probably means that after the war there will be lot´s of jobs available. Germany managed to integrate and assimilate half a million Poles and Masurians in the Ruhr region who moved there before WW1. With jobs available, integrating more should be possible. I agree that absolute numbers however will play a role in public perception. Too many too fast won´t work. I don´t think we´ll see that many black citizens in Germany yet. Except maybe people with "stipends or military/civil service exchange". Given that the pension of retired black soldiers probably is pretty low by European standards I don´t quite see many of them retiring in Germany (higher cost of living). "Non-German eastern Europeans". Do you mean refugees? As long as there are not too many and jobs are available (see above) it might be manageable. The problem might be a mass movement of Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe. Both Austria-Hungary and Germany probably would like to limit that to a few hundred thousands? If more come then trying to resettle them in the German colonies might be the best option? |
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