The Stars at Night: A Texas Timeline

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Bexar

A question in honor of Feista: what's the current state of the Alamo? Who owns it, and what, if anything, is it being used for?

It briefly served a military purpose once again during the Mexican War; as of now, it's owned by the Catholic Church, which has largely let it go to pot. But San Antonio is now the biggest city on the "border" between south and east Texas, so who knows what kind of trouble it will attract...

[Errnge]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

It briefly served a military purpose once again during the Mexican War; as of now, it's owned by the Catholic Church, which has largely let it go to pot. But San Antonio is now the biggest city on the "border" between south and east Texas, so who knows what kind of trouble it will attract...

By the way, what are the religious demographics of the Republic of Texas (or what's left of it)?

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Errnge

By the way, what are the religious demographics of the Republic of Texas (or what's left of it)?

Of the slightly less than a million people in Texas, I'd guess it was about 1/3 Catholic (French and Spanish), with most of the remainder being Protestants of various stripes, with your outlying pockets of freidenker, Santería, Latter-Day Saints (between Texians and Comanche, they haven't done well), and the Truthers, members of the True Church of Christ the One King, "Texas's Fastest Growing Religion!" which has doubled its membership to thirty five people, only about half of which are wives or children of Charles Guiteau.

[Herr Frage]

So we have four states in Texas postJohnston?

1. West and North under Johnston's followers with the Remnants of the Sun Dance still in the picture.

2. The South, since Forrest survived, at least I think he did, I imagine he will try and be the big man down there.

3. The East under the French and the Texian aristocrats. Emperor of Texas?

4. German state in the hill country. I can't see that lasting long. The French won't want it and its sort of a nightmare of the Texians. A war of partition?

I get the feeling most Americans will want to let the crazies sort it out. Why punch a hornets nest. There will be those advocating annexation of course.

[VidaLaVida]

I'm coming in pretty late to reading this TL (I only just finished reading the first page), but dang, is it fun! You've got a real winning combination here, Sicarious, combining a genuinely intriguing historical change with a unique and amusing presentation style. And I'm sure that a Turtledove-winning TL won't dissapoint as I read further. You've got one more fan!

[Historico]

Hmm, A divided Texas; seems extremely plausible given how ethnically diverse the state is ITTL. Especially since we are before the time that Texas began industrializing and throwing rail lines all over the state IOTL, issues with distance and geography could make it incredibly feasible. I can't wait to see how you think this might develop Sicari, Keep it coming!!!

[metastasis_d]

Can't wait for the map!

Great update, Sic!

[Rooster Cogburn]

A.S. Johnston dead? Richard King dead? Nathan Bedford Forrest defeated in battle? A French victory?A separated Texas? I do not approve!!!

But having Lee on the quarter helps the medicine go down.....can't wait to see the map! And thanks so much for answering my questions! Things are much more clear now

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

New York's Sanford E. Church is Lee's Vice President.

Originally Posted by Sicarius

1868's nominee was Vice-President and former governor of New Jersey Joel Parker.

So was Church or Joel Parker, Lee's Vice President?

[Sicarius]

Nooooo

I'll stick with Joel Parker; I wanted someone who had anti-Speed, eastern seaboard credentials that made sense as a VP, but who perhaps lacked the gravitas to manage taking over from Lee. Keepin' me honest all up in this piece.

It makes me bummed out too to have killed off some people I like and to have messed with Texas. But I never wanted to just do some Whig history where Texas dominated everything, and like every country, while it has its golden ages, nothing is ever perfect. I think it's ultimately more interesting and fun to have a little chaos in the equation.

Every rose has its thorn.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

Every rose has its thorn.

If you can call a slave rebellion, Indian uprising, French invasion, the President blowing up along with the capital, the death of a major sectional leader, the death of the greatest general, and the complete balkinization of the country ALL THE SAME TIME a thorn

[Bexar]

I would have to agree with Mr. Cogburn, there's chaos then there's CHAOS. Judging by the way you've talked about this period, I am curious if we're now going to seem something like the the United States of Texas (or should I say Confederate States of Texas ) form.

Also, if this is happening in Texas, then what calamity has happened to Mexico?! Are they having a a tough spot, or are they just a massive Mexican shaped Somalia?

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

If you can call a slave rebellion, Indian uprising, French invasion, the President blowing up along with the capital, the death of a major sectional leader, the death of the greatest general, and the complete balkinization of the country ALL THE SAME TIME a thorn

When it rains, it pours!

Originally Posted by Bexar

Also, if this is happening in Texas, then what calamity has happened to Mexico?! Are they having a a tough spot, or are they just a massive Mexican shaped Somalia?

Mexico is just getting back on the upswing. They've had to deal with losing Texas, a war against America and Texas, and increased indian trouble as compared to OTL, so they've had some straight problems any way you look at it. And the problems make whoever is in charge look weak and ineffective, so they get replaced one way or another, which just makes more problems...

But they're getting there.


And now, map! I'm still not 100% happy with it but it should give some broad ideas. The 'borders' aren't really firm lines, obviously they've never been significantly tested in war, beyond to some extent the Free Texas/Comanche/Republican borders with one another, but even then only slightly. It's more about plausible force projection. It makes Free Texas and the Comanche look like they're punching way above their weight, but keep in mind a lot of that land is mostly empty.

[Bexar]

Hip Hip Huzzah, a map has appered to illistrate the timeline to those of us who are geographiclly challenged! Also, will Mexico "get there" via reconquerista, and what of the slave rebellion? Here I was hoping to see a small Republic of Africa-in-Texas.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Bexar

I would have to agree with Mr. Cogburn, there's chaos then there's CHAOS. Judging by the way you've talked about this period, I am curious if we're now going to seem something like the the United States of Texas

First, you calling me Mr.Cogburn is perhaps one of the single greatest moments of my life And second, I love the idea of Texan states. The whole senators and congressman coming from anywhere and in any number is pretty confusing if you ask me, so several states would be nice Sic, if that's your plan, I'm totally in favor.

Ah, the map. I don't see the borders holding long. I guess the group that reenergizes the quickest will win, with the other sides unable to put up a sustained fight. And what will this whole thing be called? The generic Texan Civil War, the ol' French Intervention, or, my personal favorite, 1872: The Year of Clusterfucks.

[Arachnid]

God I'd forgotten how enormous you Texas is. What are the demographics of South Texas, surely it's still majority Hispanic thanks to including Tamaulipas and Nuevo León.

[Bexar]

Also, what of the Texan Army? In OTL they wore cast off US uniforms and carried old US rifles. Are they more French equipped here, or do they look more like Texas state forces in the Civil War(i.e. grey prison made outfits)?

Edit: my pleasure, Mr. Cogburn

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Bexar

Also, will Mexico "get there" via reconquerista, and what of the slave rebellion? Here I was hoping to see a small Republic of Africa-in-Texas.

Mexico certainly has some tempting targets right now.

The slave rebellion wasn't very successful in absolute terms, due to all kinds of factors - under-equipped, disorganized, no military experience, etc. But a fair number of rebels have fled in the disorganized period that followed to join their freedmen brethren across the river with the Comanche. Especially after the Sun Dance did NOT sweep all white men into the sea, a lot of indians who don't live in and around Texas have returned home up north, leaving freedmen and runaways pretty much the largest block in 'Comancheria' after the Comanche themselves (There's obviously some difficulty in defining who is exactly what - the Seminoles, freedmen or indians? But more or less).

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

Ah, the map. I don't see the borders holding long. I guess the group that reenergizes the quickest will win, with the other sides unable to put up a sustained fight. And what will this whole thing be called? The generic Texan Civil War, the ol' French Intervention, or, my personal favorite, 1872: The Year of Clusterfucks.

I think it'll have different names depending on where you are. The Republic of Texas will officially refer to it as the Texas Civil War or the Abolitionist Rebellion. The south and Free Texas will call it The Great Betrayal (both the RoT and the other two Texian successor states link their opponents to the slaves, and the south and Free Texas throw in an indian conspiracy for good measure).

Originally Posted by Arachnid

God I'd forgotten how enormous you Texas is. What are the demographics of South Texas, surely it's still majority Hispanic thanks to including Tamaulipas and Nuevo León.

While the population as a whole isn't huge, the south is overwhelmingly Mexican. There's a scattering of slaves, a larger number of white cowpunchers and 'overseers' for the Mexican labor, the white security forces, and the small white ruling class, but the vast majority is Mexican. But they're separated from one another, largely confined to the ranches of their caudillos, and kept from education and weapons.

Originally Posted by Bexar

Also, what of the Texan Army? In OTL they wore cast off US uniforms and carried old US rifles. Are they more French equipped here, or do they look more like Texas state forces in the Civil War(i.e. grey prison made outfits)?

Edit: my pleasure, Mr. Cogburn

The Texian Army, formally, were very snappily dressed in tan uniforms, broad brimmed flat crown hats, and armed with Henry Rifles (or what are called Henry rifles - the difference from Volcanic rifles isn't as much as in OTL, since there was a production rush for the war - that's also why Texas was able to buy them in bulk for a good price during the big buildup, when the arms world had moved on). In reality, while most at least got part of their uniforms, a lot of soldiers are still in homespun clothes or older uniforms, wielding French rifles (bought from France in happier days) or older American rifles (left over from being smuggled into the CSA, or left over from when people smuggled everything they could OUT).

EDIT: I hope people still like these updates. Obviously the format isn't where it was at the start of the thread - it likely will be again at some point, and then something else, and who knows. It's very much as the spirit moves me.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

I hope people still like these updates. Obviously the format isn't where it was at the start of the thread - it likely will be again at some point, and then something else, and who knows. It's very much as the spirit moves me.

The format is fine, but a joke here and there is greatly appreciated But I'll be honest, I'll probably like anything you put Although I restate my request for more U.S. election maps

[Herr Frage]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

I think it'll have different names depending on where you are. The Republic of Texas will officially refer to it as the Texas Civil War or the Abolitionist Rebellion. The south and Free Texas will call it The Great Betrayal (both the RoT and the other two Texian successor states link their opponents to the slaves, and the south and Free Texas throw in an indian conspiracy for good measure).
EDIT: I hope people still like these updates. Obviously the format isn't where it was at the start of the thread - it likely will be again at some point, and then something else, and who knows. It's very much as the spirit moves me.

So the division is enduring? That seems odd. The south would want more land or an alliance to keep mexico from a reconquista. Forrest isn't that much of a fool. Is he?

I notice you don't mention Comancheria or the Deutsch Colonies. My guess is the assorted Texi carve up Fredricksburg to root out socialism or some such. Or just because they agree they all hate Germans.

As for the Sun Dance, The Americans won't tolerate a native state, once they realize Texas can't subdue it, the Bluecoats will swarm.

I wonder how the Republic will deal with Operation Enduring Occupation? What exactly are the French trying to do at this point with a Bourbon on the throne in Paris?