Rommel is captured in North Africa

[LittleSpeer]

Originally Posted by lothaw

Getting captured could take a lot away from his luster of being a war hero. Being the first German Field Marshal to surrender in history would be a dubious distinction. Then again it could easily get twisted into him staying with his men until the bitter end.

Wouldn't Von Paulus have that distinction by surrendering many months earlier?

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by lothaw

BW said "(Although based on my standard a trial isn't necessary, just a summary court martial which identifies their position, the crimes perpetrated in the conduct of that position followed by a swift death penalty)"

That's pretty much the textbook definition of a kangaroo court.

Nuremburg was a BS court process anyway (Donitz and Ribbentrop's trials alone being more than enough to discredit it)

My system would regard any service in 1941-44 in, army command, army group command, high level OKH/OKW command and staff of those groups as prima facia evidence of support of the operations of the einsatzgruppen; a crime against humanity which would be punishable by death

The only appeal to offer is if the person is accused of having held that position and didn't actually do so; otherwise anything they have to say is completely irrelevent

So if one was trying Spediel for example... the charge is you where army group south chief of staff and as such where responsible for facilitating the activities of the einsatzgruppen; where you or where you not in this position? Answer is of course yes...The penalty for supporting the activities of the einsatzgruppen is death; the prisoner is hereby condemned to death by hanging; next...

[lothaw]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

Nuremburg was a BS court process anyway (Donitz and Ribbentrop's trials alone being more than enough to discredit it)

My system would regard any service in 1941-44 in, army command, army group command, high level OKH/OKW command and staff of those groups as prima facia evidence of support of the operations of the einsatzgruppen; a crime against humanity which would be punishable by death

The only appeal to offer is if the person is accused of having held that position and didn't actually do so; otherwise anything they have to say is completely irrelevent

So if one was trying Spediel for example... the charge is you where army group south chief of staff and as such where responsible for facilitating the activities of the einsatzgruppen; where you or where you not in this position? Answer is of course yes...The penalty for supporting the activities of the einsatzgruppen is death; the prisoner is hereby condemned to death by hanging; next...

Yeah Hitler would have loved to have you overseeing his courts.

[Urban fox]

Rommel's reputation will take a major prat-fall when the Allies find out just how loyal he really was to Hitler. If you read the letters the man himself wrote you'll find he was much more pro-Hitler than most of his peers.

Also his reputation was very much inflated by Churchill to cover the screw ups by the British army (I.E we didnt f**k things up the German commander is a genuis) but 1943/4 he was pretty much past it and spent most of his time feuding with Kesselring or von Rundstedt. Thus without his conveniently timed death there wont be any hint of martyrdom and it's far harder to whitewash a living Rommel than a dead one.

It took real effort to do the same with Manstien and Guderian, but they were still far too toxic to get any formal jobs in the post-war German army.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by lothaw

Yeah Hitler would have loved to have you overseeing his courts.

Hitler was trying a few actual anti government people and then going on an insane political purge of the army on the flimsiest of reasons (a la Stalin 1937 or so)

This would just have an established rule; service in any of x positions is prima facia evidence of material support to the einsatzgruppen which is an automatic death sentence

There would be no show or circumstance to the trials ala stalin or hitler; just strait summery judgements with the monsters of humanity sentenced to die like the pieces of shit that they where


This would be considerably more fair and just than large amounts of the bullshit that went on an nuremberg, would have sent a much stronger message that crimes against humanity will not be tolerated and would have indeed inflicted a larger amount of justice... far too many people who ordered or facilitated massacres walked

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Urban fox

It took complete fabrication of the historical record along with anyone who could contradict them dying in Siberia, plus a complete conspiracy with the British cold war press to do the same with Manstien and Guderian, but they were still far too toxic to get any formal jobs in the post-war German army.

Fixed that for you

[miketr]

Originally Posted by Urban fox

Rommel's reputation will take a major prat-fall when the Allies find out just how loyal he really was to Hitler. If you read the letters the man himself wrote you'll find he was much more pro-Hitler than most of his peers.

The same papers that Historians have had access to historically?


Michael

[miketr]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

Letting the troops off the leash against a "colored" (his word) North African division.

BUMP

Any chance you could provide details on this? Thanks

Regards

Michael

[Urban fox]

Fixed that for you

Well the US press lent a hand read some of the articles by Time Magazine dealing with those two gallows-dodgers. Funny how they sort of gloss over things like slavish loyalty to Hitler, corruption and mass-murder. In favour of telling you what fine old Prussian gents Eric & Heinz are.

Originally Posted by miketr

The same papers that Historians have had access to historically?


Michael

Oh yes, the man didnt take any pains to hide his staunch loyalty to Hitler.

Whatever his son and those who want to whitewash him for whatever reason might say...

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Urban fox

Well the US press lent a hand read some of the articles by Time Magazine dealing with those two gallows-dodgers. Funny how they sort of gloss over things like slavish loyalty to Hitler, corruption and mass-murder. In favour of telling you what fine old Prussian gents Eric & Heinz are.

Don't forget command of some really sinister SS formations like Pieper's blowtorch battalion

Guderian's memoirs are hillarious (if one ignores the horribleness of him and the troops involved) on the subject... it goes something like the das reich was an awesome combat division that I was honored to command... but I don't approve of them executing every pow they touched (yet somehow didn't find it in me to court martial any of the mass murderers or instill any discipline in the trouble makers)

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

Don't forget command of some really sinister SS formations like Pieper's blowtorch battalion

Guderian's memoirs are hillarious (if one ignores the horribleness of him and the troops involved) on the subject... it goes something like the das reich was an awesome combat division that I was honored to command... but I don't approve of them executing every pow they touched (yet somehow didn't find it in me to court martial any of the mass murderers or instill any discipline in the trouble makers)

Okay, that does sound sinister. What's the "blowtorch battalion"?

I've read one of Guderian's books and I don't recall mention of POWs--what sticks out mostly is him complaining about Hitler.

(Apparently Hitler insisted that dugouts for the men could be created via artillery bombardment just like they did in WWI, apparently ignorant of the Russian ground being frozen. And he blamed Hitler for ordering some offensive in Hungary late in the war rather than trying to hold the line in Germany proper.)

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Okay, that does sound sinister. What's the "blowtorch battalion"?

The blow torch battalion was commanded by this fellow Joachim Peiper.... it was 3rd battalion 2nd SS panzergrenadier regiment 1st SS panzer/panzergrenadier division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler

They where a highly effective combat battalion, indeed probably one of the most effective battalions in the entire army

That said, they torched many Ukrainian villages and where quite legandary for it, and where quite liberal in their prisoner executions (even by Waffen SS standards)

Peiper was a very interesting character, but he was also a tremendous douchebag/hardcore nazi... in any sort of functioning war crimes trial he would have been hung