Civil rights movement- more successful in North

[Melvin Loh]

During the 1960s, the civil rights movement under MLK and other black moderate leaders were able to gradually achieve significant progress in desegregating the South and advancing the cause of black ppl's civil and political rights thru methods of nonviolent resistance, but were much less successful in achieving meaningful change in the North's urban centres, where urban blacks were seeking more eco and social advancement against an atmosphere of de facto segregation by whites who didn't want blacks living alongside them in the same neighbourhoods or attending the same schools, and therefore moved to the suburbs ('white flight'). King and his followers did try to mount civil rights campaigns in the North using 'sit-ins' and similar methods as were used in the South, but without much success against white-dominated local govts and residents who felt that the largescale presence of blacks in their social institutions would lead to a largescale lowering of standards, and facilitated the 'white backlash' against civil rights. Therefore, MLK's appeals for racial integration in the North, such as re residential desegregation in Chicago in 1966, fell on deaf ears, which in turn underpinned growing black frustration in the ghettos leading to such riots as Harlem 1964, Watts and Indiannapolis 1965, Detroit and Newark 1967.

How could the civil rights movement have made more extensive inroads into the white power structures of Northern cities and achieved more meaningful economic and social progress for black urban ppl ?

[Derek Jackson]

Maybe a combination of more non violent direct action by King and others and on the other hand strong enforcement of aspects of the Civil Rights Act on Housing

[Michael E Johnson]

"How could the civil rights movement have made more extensive inroads into the white power structures of Northern cities and achieved more meaningful economic and social progress for black urban ppl ?"


1 idea- The Republican party doesnt become a welcoming home for all of the bigots amongst the following groups of Americans-(formerly Democratic) Southern segregationists (urban and rural),rural whites ( in Northern and Western states) and WASP's and white ethnics in the major cities and suburbs in the North ( who both played a leading role in the blatant racism that was white flight). I know thats not a very realistic expectation for the GOP,but I dont think it can be debated that progress for blacks in America would have been more extensive if one of the major American political parties didnt pander to the same bigots,north and south,who opposed the civil rights movement .I could have suggested that things would have been different if the bigots amongst the same groups of Americans had actually lived up to the Christian values that most of them claim to hold and didnt raise their kids to be bigots too -shit I'm doing it again

[Ward]

Originally Posted by Michael E Johnson

"How could the civil rights movement have made more extensive inroads into the white power structures of Northern cities and achieved more meaningful economic and social progress for black urban ppl ?"


1 idea- The Republican party doesnt become a welcoming home for all of the bigots amongst the following groups of Americans-(formerly Democratic) Southern segregationists (urban and rural),rural whites ( in Northern and Western states) and WASP's and white ethnics in the major cities and suburbs in the North ( who both played a leading role in the blatant racism that was white flight). I know thats not a very realistic expectation for the GOP,but I dont think it can be debated that progress for blacks in America would have been more extensive if one of the major American political parties didnt pander to the same bigots,north and south,who opposed the civil rights movement .I could have suggested that things would have been different if the bigots amongst the same groups of Americans had actually lived up to the Christian values that most of them claim to hold and didnt raise their kids to be bigots too -shit I'm doing it again

What has the Democratic Partry Realy done for the Black man in the last 100 years . Beside tell them a lot of shit . I would like to know . And what was done how much was realy for the better. I think the military changed the american culture more then the Democratic Party has for blacks . Read your history of the Republican and Democratic partries . P.S. if JFK were alive would he be a Democratic today.

[David S Poepoe]

"P.S. if JFK were alive would he be a Democratic today."

Well, he was a democrat while alive also. Are you sure you didn't mean to say 'he would be a Republican today'? That I think is a fair assessment.

[Mike Collins]

Theres an old saying that has a nugget of truth in it. Whites in the South didnt care how well off blacks became so long as they didnt have to live near them. Whites in the North didnt care where blacks lived so long as they stayed poor. Perhaps if MLK and company sought to improve the lot of Northern Blacks economically there would be a different outcome. Examples would be financial assistance in starting businesses, push to expand union jobs for blacks, and extra financial assistance in geting young Northern blacks into universities.

[Xen]

Originally Posted by Michael E Johnson

1 idea- The Republican party doesnt become a welcoming home for all of the bigots amongst the following groups of Americans-(formerly Democratic) Southern segregationists (urban and rural),rural whites ( in Northern and Western states) and WASP's and white ethnics in the major cities and suburbs in the North ( who both played a leading role in the blatant racism that was white flight).

That sounds like an excellent POD. The southerners bolt the Democratic Party to form the Dixiecrats or someother nonsense, neo-Nazi Party bull. The Republicans are more along the lines of Rockefeller Republicans, basically moderate, the Democrats liberalize and the Dixiecrats try to force the country to remain in the nineteenth century but are a major third party. By the 1980's its obvious the Dixiecrats are failing, none of their policies are going through so right of center Republicans begin to take southern seats with other people in Dixie joining the Libertarian Party seeing it as the better alternative, and making it a major third Party able to win seats in Congress and the Senate. The Dixiecrats are reduced to a minority, a catalysts for nut jobs like Dick Cheney, Sean Hannity and Dick Rumsfield, but with little effect on the country.

Originally Posted by Michael E Johnson

I could have suggested that things would have been different if the bigots amongst the same groups of Americans had actually lived up to the Christian values that most of them claim to hold and didnt raise their kids to be bigots too -shit I'm doing it again

Now, now, lets not get into ASB territory here

[Paul Spring]

How are you going to stop "white flight" to the suburbs short of passing draconian laws forbidding people from moving out of their old neighborhood? If you start passing laws like that, then you're virtually a police state.

[Michael E Johnson]

Originally Posted by Ward

What has the Democratic Partry Realy done for the Black man in the last 100 years . Beside tell them a lot of shit . I would like to know . And what was done how much was realy for the better. I think the military changed the american culture more then the Democratic Party has for blacks . Read your history of the Republican and Democratic partries . P.S. if JFK were alive would he be a Democratic today.

Can someone else take this one -I have addressed this before here so can someone else take a turn ??? Well shit I just cant resist since I have been brushing up on my history of the Republican and Democratic parties You are right the military is one of the most intergrated institutions in the United States but there is something you may not be aware of-DEMOCRATIC president Harry S Truman was the president who signed the excecutive order that ended segregation in the military. You also probably arent aware, but this was one of the main events in the 20th century culnimating with JFK's speechs for and LBJ's signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that radically changed the lives of American blacks for the better while it also pushed millions of white bigots , north and south,into the welcoming arms of the Republicans. I have heard this tired,inaccurate refrain before about what have Democrats done for blacks in the last 100 years- I have a better question- what have Republicans done since 1863 to earn even the measly 5-10% of the black vote they manage to get in presidential elections??? PS I'm looking for an answer that doesnt involve the names Clarence Thomas, JC Watts, Colin Powell or Condolezza Rice -I know its a tall order but surely someone here can do it .

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Michael E Johnson

Can someone else take this one -I have addressed this before here so can someone else take a turn ??? Well shit I just cant resist since I have been brushing up on my history of the Republican and Democratic parties You are right the military is one of the most intergrated institutions in the United States but there is something you may not be aware of-DEMOCRATIC president Harry S Truman was the president who signed the excecutive order that ended segregation in the military. You also probably arent aware, but this was one of the main events in the 20th century culnimating with JFK's speechs for and LBJ's signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that radically changed the lives of American blacks for the better while it also pushed millions of white bigots , north and south,into the welcoming arms of the Republicans. I have heard this tired,inaccurate refrain before about what have Democrats done for blacks in the last 100 years- I have a better question- what have Republicans done since 1863 to earn even the measly 5-10% of the black vote they manage to get in presidential elections??? PS I'm looking for an answer that doesnt involve the names Clarence Thomas, JC Watts, Colin Powell or Condolezza Rice -I know its a tall order but surely someone here can do it .

I guess they would talk about economics etc

Or social conservative happy-clappy black church values

Grey Wolf

[Michael E Johnson]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

I guess they would talk about economics etc

Or social conservative happy-clappy black church values

Grey Wolf

Economics? Remember I'm talking about what POSITIVE things they have done for black Americans


Or social conservative happy-clappy black church values? Yes you make an excellent point about this and in fact the majority of the handful of black Republicans out there have socially conservative views. But so do the millions of conservative blacks that stick with the Democrats and avoid the GOP like the plague. Why is that ??? It's just a guess but I have a theory-most of the conservative blacks are fully aware that while their conservative white neighbors may be willing to live next to them or even be represented in Congress by them nowdays they still have an issue going to church with them or having their kids date each other .In short- Republicans think blacks vote Democratic because Democrats have fooled them -in reality blacks vote Democratic because Republicans cant fool them.

[NapoleonXIV]

Originally Posted by Paul Spring

How are you going to stop "white flight" to the suburbs short of passing draconian laws forbidding people from moving out of their old neighborhood? If you start passing laws like that, then you're virtually a police state.

Will somebody please answer this?? Or is that what you are proposing?

[Michael E Johnson]

Originally Posted by Paul Spring

How are you going to stop "white flight" to the suburbs short of passing draconian laws forbidding people from moving out of their old neighborhood? If you start passing laws like that, then you're virtually a police state.

Like I said ,I was going to suggest that the bigotry inherant in "white flight" could have been stopped by the love and charity issuing from the goodness of their Chritstian hearts but as Xen noted-this would be ASB territory.

[NapoleonXIV]

Originally Posted by Michael E Johnson

Like I said ,I was going to suggest that the bigotry inherant in "white flight" could have been stopped by the love and charity issuing from the goodness of their Chritstian hearts but as Xen noted-this would be ASB territory.

OIC, didn't catch that one. Quite true, but then there wouldn't be a Civil Rights movement, or any need for one.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

OIC, didn't catch that one. Quite true, but then there wouldn't be a Civil Rights movement, or any need for one.

Which I suppose would make an interesting ATL - what if black emancipation through Christian White respect movements and not through their own doing ?

No MLK,but instead Pastor Bad John Sorenson from Minnesota preaching its right to embrace ya black nayboor and its good and its soooooooo coool !!!

Or however its done in US churches

Grey Wolf

[NapoleonXIV]

If Pope John XXIII, the strongest activist in the Catholic Church since Leo X, had survived to 1970, he quite probably would have gotten squarely behind the Civil Rights movement. He certainly would invite MLK to the Vatican. Had he actually come to the US and 'toured' with MLK, lecturing against the evils of racism, then I can't see how this could fail to have some effect. Some more conservative parts of the Catholics would break away, I'm sure, but many more segments of the Protestants would be shamed into joining the Catholics

Another change, much easier, have earlier legislation outlawing the practice of "blockbusting" and "steering" In the first realtors would purposely show houses they neither wanted nor could afford to blacks in white neighborhoods with much fanfare, then come back and solicit sales in that neighborhood. In the second they would only take blacks to homes in black neighborhoods regardless of their qualifications or desires. Both were time-honored practices in the Real Estate industry, with only the first being seen as even slightly unethical.

[raharris1973]

that if white flight had not been made possible through suburbanization, we would still be having race riots like Detroit '42 and Chicago 1919, generally one-sided affairs where whites invaded clusters of black homes and killed people and destroyed property. White flight may have pulled economic propos out of the cities, but it also allowed blacks to exercise political power in the cities whites left behind

[George Carty]

Originally Posted by Paul Spring

How are you going to stop "white flight" to the suburbs short of passing draconian laws forbidding people from moving out of their old neighborhood? If you start passing laws like that, then you're virtually a police state.

Might the "Anglo-American/Nazi War" US have ended up passing such laws, likening people who want to live in whites-only neighborhoods to the Nazis?

[CalBear]

Originally Posted by George Carty

Might the "Anglo-American/Nazi War" US have ended up passing such laws, likening people who want to live in whites-only neighborhoods to the Nazis?

This may well be the record EIGHT YEARS, NINE MONTHS, TWENTY DAYS, with better than half of the previous replies by now Banned members, and an OP who hasn't been active here in 42 months, and you dig it out of the grave for a one line question.

Really (even if it was one of my personal T/L you were referring to)?

Don't do that!

[CalBear]

Back to the grave zombie! With Salt and Blood I bind thee to the earth to rise no more!