united roman empire in dark ages

[radical_neutural]

charlemange's sons all die. he marries the empress of byzantium (forget her name) bears a son, united roman monarchy.

[NapoleonXIV]

The Byzantine/Franks ally with the Vikings to take back Syria, Egypt and Spain from the Omayyads and Ummayyads. While they sweep the Main continent and the Med Isles clear of Arabs they are unable to take more than Valencia and the Levant on land.

England enjoys a somewhat more stable and less invaded few centuries before it is peaceably absorbed as a Celtic Kingdom in 1050.

The Kiev Varangians ally with Frankium to turn the Black sea into a Byzantine/Frankish lake and the Balkans are discipined into being loyal vassals of Constantinople. However, the Novgorod Rus break off from the Empire and ally with the Scythian tribes, forming a plains culture based on wheeled dragonboats pulled by sturdy Steppe ponies, that roll East from river to river almost to the Gates of Cathay.

[Max Sinister]

Wasn't Irene at that time empress of Byzantium? She hadn't exactly the best reputation (and I'm not talking about sleeping around...)

[radical_neutural]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

Wasn't Irene at that time empress of Byzantium? She hadn't exactly the best reputation (and I'm not talking about sleeping around...)

yeah, that's her. thanks i forgot her name.

[MerryPrankster]

Their son would have lots of problems dealing with the Eastern Empire--they'd think he was a smelly barbarian.

Something tells me this isn't going to work out very well.

[radical_neutural]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Their son would have lots of problems dealing with the Eastern Empire--they'd think he was a smelly barbarian.

Something tells me this isn't going to work out very well.

i didn't say this had to last forever...

[Wozza]

She gets deposed, in 802 I believe.
The Byzantine succession is not really through descent, which is a big issue.

I am afraid you have no understanding of the centrigufal forces in the Frankish empire, and in most medieval polities. There is a reason that the Frankish Empire and Abbassid Caliphate had essentially dissolved by the 11th century.


Quite why England would revert to being Celtic is also intriguing.

[Midgard]

Wasn't Irene like, getting close to 50 years of age when the marriage proposal was considered? A chance of her bearing any children at that age would have been, shall we say, rather miniscule...

A better chance is with Otto III marrying Zoe, Basil II's niece - they almost got married in OTL, but Otto died young before it actually happened. Have Otto survive, and Zoe bear a son - with the death of Basil II and, eventually, Constantine VIII, that son would be a legitimate heir to both Byzantium and Saxon HRE crowns. Not completely dark age, but close enough.

[Sargon]

Since the Pasha ain't here to say it, I'll recap basically what he said in a similar thread a while back.

The Byzantines would regard the marriage of Irene to an illiterate western oaf of a barbarian as something akin to the Victorians viewing Queen Victoria marrying the Negus of Abyssinia...in other words, not only would it be scandalous, it would be anathema, and Irene would be booted off her throne even more quickly than OTL. Sad and unpalatable to our modern ears, but unfortunately all too true.

And yes, the issue of such a union would most probably have the gates of Constantinople slammed in their face. Cue an Emperor elevated from the ranks of the Byzantine military or the bureacracy to fill the vacant throne.

It's not impossible that such an heir would finally be accepted, but it's not going to be easy at all.

Yes, the Basil II thingy with Otto III is an interesting one. Can't believe Basil II wore himself out in the cause of his empire and didn't even have a single child...a catastrophic oversight.

Sargon

[Wozza]

Originally Posted by midgardmetal

Wasn't Irene like, getting close to 50 years of age when the marriage proposal was considered? A chance of her bearing any children at that age would have been, shall we say, rather miniscule...

A better chance is with Otto III marrying Zoe, Basil II's niece - they almost got married in OTL, but Otto died young before it actually happened. Have Otto survive, and Zoe bear a son - with the death of Basil II and, eventually, Constantine VIII, that son would be a legitimate heir to both Byzantium and Saxon HRE crowns. Not completely dark age, but close enough.

OTL do either Zoe or Theodora have children? I believe not.

Byzantium still faces growing internal disintegration, ironically due to prosperity,
This marriage will encourage the use of politically reliable mercenaries, of whom there may be a merry Germanic supply.
The problem is that it will be physically impossible to rule both realms.
The German empire is pretty peripatetic. It is unclear how peripatetic a Byzantime Emperor has to be at this stage, Basil II was but possibly by choice not necessity.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Wozza

OTL do either Zoe or Theodora have children? I believe not.

Byzantium still faces growing internal disintegration, ironically due to prosperity,
This marriage will encourage the use of politically reliable mercenaries, of whom there may be a merry Germanic supply.
The problem is that it will be physically impossible to rule both realms.
The German empire is pretty peripatetic. It is unclear how peripatetic a Byzantime Emperor has to be at this stage, Basil II was but possibly by choice not necessity.

Under the Saxon Emperors (Ottonian dynasty), HRE was actually at its most centralized - Otto II and especially III wanted to model it heavily on Byzantium, so it is not implausible that both realms can be united in some realistic shape or form. With Zoe and Theodora, one has to keep in mind that they were both kept in monasteries until such age that, well, them having any children would have been rather unrealistic. I believe Zoe would have been something like mid-late 40s at the death of Constantine VIII, and Theodora could not have been much younger, if at all - but if she marries Otto III while in her 20s, and both live for enough time for Otto to make reforms to HRE he wanted to make OTL, there is no reason why they would not have at least one child, if not more.

[Wozza]

Originally Posted by midgardmetal

Under the Saxon Emperors (Ottonian dynasty), HRE was actually at its most centralized - Otto II and especially III wanted to model it heavily on Byzantium, so it is not implausible that both realms can be united in some realistic shape or form. With Zoe and Theodora, one has to keep in mind that they were both kept in monasteries until such age that, well, them having any children would have been rather unrealistic. I believe Zoe would have been something like mid-late 40s at the death of Constantine VIII, and Theodora could not have been much younger, if at all - but if she marries Otto III while in her 20s, and both live for enough time for Otto to make reforms to HRE he wanted to make OTL, there is no reason why they would not have at least one child, if not more.

Hmm, yes that sounds good.
I think centralized by Western standards cannot be much compared to centralized by Byzantine standards. There are great practical problems, but a single dynasty ruling allied realms could be very interesting indeed.
We are still hurtling towards 1054 of course. Unless Basil II gets his Greek pope this time round.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Wozza

Hmm, yes that sounds good.
I think centralized by Western standards cannot be much compared to centralized by Byzantine standards. There are great practical problems, but a single dynasty ruling allied realms could be very interesting indeed.
We are still hurtling towards 1054 of course. Unless Basil II gets his Greek pope this time round.

If Ottonians do not end like they did in OTL, there is a good chance either Otto III himself, or his son would be alive and reigning as an Emperor in 1054 - even if Patriarch Cerularius is not butterflied away, an Ottonian German Emperor would have little problem making sure the Papacy stays in line. There will be too little for the Papacy to gain by angering either Empire when both are united, and too much to lose - so no schism, and maybe even a compromise of some kind with both Western and Eastern Empires under one man, and both the Pope and the Patriarch forced to negotiate...

[Wozza]

I can see the Church being pressured

but potentially this is a new card for the Church to play in the Investiture contest. Although without the Normans the Church would be in a much weaker position.

You underrate the difficulty of ruling both realms, the sheer problems of communication, and the very different interests, needs and structures they have.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Wozza

I can see the Church being pressured

but potentially this is a new card for the Church to play in the Investiture contest. Although without the Normans the Church would be in a much weaker position.

You underrate the difficulty of ruling both realms, the sheer problems of communication, and the very different interests, needs and structures they have.

What I would imagine is, given Otto III's propensity to basically build a "German Byzantium" (as AFAIK he saw himself as a "Roman" Emperor, not a "German" one), chances are he would have pulled a Frederick II and basically left Germany to its own devices, and concentrated on Italy - at this stage, if he is smart, he could even attempt to marginalize the Pope (although it would be hard to tell if he would be successful or not), and rule as a Byzantine autocrat from Rome.

More likely though, the heir (let's call him Otto IV) will spend more time in Constantinople, given Otto III's OTL ideas, and as such if Otto manages to have more than one son, he will have one in the West, one in the East - the unity will be rather superficial, but the real effect will be the remaking of the West in the Byzantine image - the two Empires will eventually collide, but here the West will not disintegrate as in OTL, and is likely to be a real unit as opposed to a theoretical construct.

[Wozza]

making a Byzantium in the west will not really be possible

Byzantium is becoming more like the West, the central structures are ever harder to maintain.

will unity prevent that or hasten in???

I think the question is interesting.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Wozza

making a Byzantium in the west will not really be possible

Byzantium is becoming more like the West, the central structures are ever harder to maintain.

will unity prevent that or hasten in???

I think the question is interesting.

I think in Germany, it is hard - but in Italy, not so. Keep in mind, this is before the Normans (who IMO basically hastened the arrival of feudalism in Italy - before them much of Italy was under Byzantine rule, and... closer to the idea of centralization). Therefore an Ottonian version of Frederick II's Sicily is not too far-fetched - after all, without Byzantine interference (if the same person rules both empires), establishing a quasi-Roman "empire" in Italy would be easier - Germany, of course, would still fall by the wayside like it did with Hohenstaufens in OTL two centuries later, and Byzantium would lose some of that centralization (albeit not to the level of the Paleologi) - but think of the effect on Crusades, if they still occur.

IMO "unity" will be only hypothetical, and at best will be little more than a dynasty supplementation on the Byzantine throne - think of it more as a long-term alliance than anything else. It is, however, more interesting IMO what happens in the West if the Ottonians survive... they could have prevented eventual HRE collapse centuries later by making it into a centralized empire with hereditary succession, etc...