Fascist Mexico

[Xen]

In an alternate history I am writing, I have the world as being a very different place, but I want to extend the events of the world beyond the norm. Usually we have a tendency to write about Europe, North America, Japan, and China. Im wanting to extend my timeline to include Africa and Latin America.

I will mention the United States since it does have an effect on Mexico, the northern provinces of Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Baja California Peninsula have been annexed by the US. This just plays on Mexico's mentality, but is little more than a foot note as Mexico never has had the power to take it back from the US.

I will also mention Russia as it is more of the problem child of the world, its big, militarily powerful, with a high population and resembles OTL Nazi Germany, fortunatley for the world Russia is rather isolationist, and does little more than rattle its saber at anyone it can get to listen. The view of the rest of the world is Russia is a ticking timebomb, ready to blow.

As for Mexico sometime in the early twentieth century, perhaps around 1920 there is either a revolution or civil war in Mexico that leads to a Mussolini-like Fascist type government in Mexico. Just as Mussolini wanted to restore the glory of the old Roman Empire, the Mexican President (havent named him yet) spouts of rhetoric about wanting to return the country to the glory of the old Aztec Empire, going so far as renaming Mexcio City to Tenochtitlan. Mexico shares a long bitter border with their northern neighbor, however they are smart enough not to try and provoke a war with Washington, they do have a tendency to support Russia and her policies, although the nations are not formally allied, Mexico uses Russian assault rifles, tanks, planes and diesal subs. Russian military advisors are not a rare sight on Mexican military bases either.

In spite of all this Mexico still doesn't pose a threat to the United States, its not powerful enough, nor does it have the economy that can support a war against a major power. However the United States isn't thrilled about Russia's involvment in Mexico, but can't say much, Russia hasnt fully violated the Monroe Doctrine, they have pushed it to its breaking point though.

The United Kingdom is also watching the events with great intrest, British Honduras could be threatened, as could the Nicaragua Canal, which they administer jointy with the United States.

Does this seem probable? Especially with Mexico City being renamed to the old Aztec name?

[Leo Caesius]

One major problem that you must consider when addressing the issue of Mexican nationalism is the distinction between those who are descended from the Spanish settlers (and who have their own Catholic and European identity) and those who are descended, wholly or in part, from the aboriginal inhabitants of Mexico (who have a variety of distinct identities). The latter have always been dispossessed by the political situation and are considered socially inferior.

Consequently, unless some coalition of the indios manage to seize control during this time period (perhaps in a communist or socialist revolution?) and deprive the blancos of their power, I doubt very much that any state in Mexico would hearken back to the Aztecs and whatnot - especially considering the dim view they take of their descendents.

A fascist state in the Mexico we know would probably be staunchly Catholic like Franco's Spain (to which it would undoubtedly have strong ties), hispanophone to the detriment of the native languages, tie its citizens' rights to limpieza de sangre (e.g. natives or part-natives not permitted to teach in schools, serve in the government, etc), and be irredentist with regards to its northern and southern borders.

[Othniel]

I'd say it would be closer to Salazar than Franco or Mussolini...

[Tom_B]

The turbuelent post Diaz period does have potential that is sadly neglected on this Board.

You might make your POD that Pancho Villa wins at Celaya in 1915 and ultimately establishes himself as ruler of Mexico. Instead of Aztec nostalgia or super Catholic modes of fascism the Villa dictatorship could be Socialism/Populism badly degraded by egotism and megalomania, a Talk left Walk Right scenario.

BTW shouldn't this be on the other Board?

Tom

[Leo Caesius]

Originally Posted by Tom_B

BTW shouldn't this be on the other Board?

I think that Xen is assuming that the northern states are annexed sometime during the 19th century - that's the POD.

[NapoleonXIV]

Originally Posted by Othniel

I'd say it would be closer to Salazar than Franco or Mussolini...

Or Peron. I fail to see why everyone sees a Fascist Mexico as necessarily Catholic. A rather virulent anticlericalism was characteristic of the entire Mexican Revolutionary movement IIRC.

Unless you have no Revolution, but a peaceable succession from Diaz.

Perhaps have the Revolution start, but then US intervention early on in favor of one or another revolutionary, then a long war/revolution somewhat as in OTL but with an on/off American presence finally ending with the establishment of a Fascist government where internal ethnic/religious differences are overshadowed by general anti-American feeling.

[Wendell]

I like the Tenochtitlan idea, but I don't think it is plausible under most likely scenarios. Furthermore, would a more pro-Indigene government push for greater use of native languages? Personally, a Fascist Mexico could use a scapegoat, and the Indios could serve that function, calling into question some of this idea's original suppositions.

Could Idi Amin's regime in Uganda serve as a model. assuming the Mexican Criollos were removed from dominance of Mexican politics?

[mishery]

Originally Posted by Leo Caesius

A fascist state in the Mexico we know would probably be staunchly Catholic like Franco's Spain

Franco's Spain was not Fascist, it was a conservative Catholic regime with a few fascist trappings.

[Xen]

Hmmm interesting ideas so far. I did plan on making Mexico very Catholic at this point, there is no revolution as we know it, just as Im having Russia as being very Orthodox. I like the idea of Pancho Villa becoming the leader of Mexico too, perhaps I can have him avoid that entanglement with the United States and concentrate his efforts on the government of Mexico, whom he believes is a puppet of Uncle Sam, and so do many people. Perhaps while the United States is busy in the Great War, Pancho Villa leads his assault on Mexico City, and becomes the President of Mexico.

Ive seen Spain mentioned a couple of times, Im currently leaning to have Spain becoming a Socialist Republic, a very authoritarian government, alot like Eastern Europe during the Cold War with one major difference, religion. In spite of Spain being socialist it maintains its ties to the church or have the church stripped of its social standing, and its lands confiscated but the people dont have to suffer any restrictions on going to Church, which is closely monitored by the Spanish government (the church that is). Christianity and Socialism can make a good combination. Spain will also have subdivisions like the USSR (IE Castile SSR, Basque SSR, etc)

So I dont think Mexico will get along with Spain overly well.

[Othniel]

Which is why I suggested Salazer's model of proto-facism...he is in power in the near future is he not, and many latin American countries, Brazil most notably, lent heavily from him, not Hitler or Mussolini or even Franco. The leader of Portugal may become quite important in looking to whom is the role model after the turbelent years of Diaz is over. (after all it might be the model around..)

[Tom_B]

Originally Posted by Xen

Hmmm interesting ideas so far. I did plan on making Mexico very Catholic at this point, there is no revolution as we know it, just as Im having Russia as being very Orthodox. I like the idea of Pancho Villa becoming the leader of Mexico too, perhaps I can have him avoid that entanglement with the United States and concentrate his efforts on the government of Mexico, whom he believes is a puppet of Uncle Sam, and so do many people. Perhaps while the United States is busy in the Great War, Pancho Villa leads his assault on Mexico City, and becomes the President of Mexico.

.

If Pancho Villa defeats Obregon at Celaya he won't be raiding the US. At one time the US liked Villa. IIRC Pershing even met with him. It was the defeat of Division North with horrendous casualties (Celaya was like Ypres) followed by America not providing him aid that caused him to cross the border (and maybe some German agents).

You'll need to figure out what he does with Zapata in the south who was his ally in 1915.

Tom