If Outer Manchuria had a large Chinese and Korean population

[kasumigenx]

If Outer Manchuria had a large Chinese and Korean population before the Russian expansion would it be a part of Russia what would be the consequences of this...

[tormsen]

It likely wouldn't have become part of Russia in that case. I think the Qing tried to force colonize of that region a few times but it didn't take. Then again, they also tried to restrict Han Chinese migration into Manchuria at times.

In the 19th century, Koreans spread widely throughout the Manchurian region and what is now the Russian Far East. Maybe have this happen earlier?

[Lord Grattan]

It would most likely not be Russian territory today. I wonder what would have become of Sakhalin Island had Outer Manchuria remained part of China? Controlling the Heilongjiang was key to Russia's dominance in the region. Also, no Russian military presence at Vladivostok (which would remain the village of Haishenwei) and along the Strait of Tartary coast would be a major butterfly here.

I'll be interested in seeing what others think about this topic, as that's the direction in which my CoHE TL is moving.

[Grey Wolf]

It depends

Maybe Russia wouldn't get it in the 1850s, but that leaves a lot of time when they could, and the era of appropriation of Chinese territory doesn't have to stop then - it could be as a result of intervention later, or a wholly Russo-Chinese War later

If Russia doesn't hold the Amur Maritime provinces, maybe they decide to keep Kashgaria also

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[tormsen]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

It depends

Maybe Russia wouldn't get it in the 1850s, but that leaves a lot of time when they could, and the era of appropriation of Chinese territory doesn't have to stop then - it could be as a result of intervention later, or a wholly Russo-Chinese War later

That would be a rather different kind of colonization then, more a matter of control than settlement. The likelihood that it would be retained as part of Russia proper after the age of imperialism is somewhat reduced.

[Mr Qwerty]

If the Russians don't hold the Far East, they probably won't control Northeast Siberia-or Alaska. This puts Alaska in Canada. Northeast Siberia might be Chinese, Japanese, Manchurian, or even Korean.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Mr Qwerty

If the Russians don't hold the Far East, they probably won't control Northeast Siberia-or Alaska. This puts Alaska in Canada. Northeast Siberia might be Chinese, Japanese, Manchurian, or even Korean.

They already HAD NE Siberia and Alaska, that's why the Crimean War was fought around Sakhalin and an assault on Petropavlosk, which was the main naval base before the acquisition of the Maritime Provinces and the founding of Vladivostock

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[tormsen]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

They already HAD NE Siberia and Alaska, that's why the Crimean War was fought around Sakhalin and an assault on Petropavlosk, which was the main naval base before the acquisition of the Maritime Provinces and the founding of Vladivostock

I'm pretty sure that the OP relates to the 16th century and before as a PoD, and you're hung up on 19th century OTL stuff.

I expect that the Russians will be able to take northeast Siberia regardless, all the way out to Kamchatka, but logistics will be much more difficult.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by tormsen

I'm pretty sure that the OP relates to the 16th century and before as a PoD, and you're hung up on 19th century OTL stuff.

I expect that the Russians will be able to take northeast Siberia regardless, all the way out to Kamchatka, but logistics will be much more difficult.

If Manchuria has a dense population earlier in 13-15th centuries, I believe that america would be discovered earlier by easterners.

[Mr Qwerty]

Originally Posted by mimeyo

If Manchuria has a dense population earlier in 13-15th centuries, I believe that america would be discovered earlier by easterners.

Hmm, kinda like a crime.
Opportunity: No Ming-like enforced ban on ocean travel.
Method: Craft capable of reliably making the trip (nasty weather there).
Motive: Tricky. Trade is unlikely-who's there to trade with?

Say a maritime culture develops in the region (which would presumably colonize Sahalin, Hokkaido and the Kuriles); could we see long-range fishing expeditions, like with the Basque? If they go far enough, they'll find the Pacific Northwest, and eventually word will filter back to merchants. Problem is, the locals there are hunter-gatherers, albeit unusually rich ones. Kwakiutls or whatever might be happy to trade, but it'd be low-volume stuff. Not big enough to justify, say, major exploratory expeditions.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Mr Qwerty

Hmm, kinda like a crime.
Opportunity: No Ming-like enforced ban on ocean travel.
Method: Craft capable of reliably making the trip (nasty weather there).
Motive: Tricky. Trade is unlikely-who's there to trade with?

Say a maritime culture develops in the region (which would presumably colonize Sahalin, Hokkaido and the Kuriles); could we see long-range fishing expeditions, like with the Basque? If they go far enough, they'll find the Pacific Northwest, and eventually word will filter back to merchants. Problem is, the locals there are hunter-gatherers, albeit unusually rich ones. Kwakiutls or whatever might be happy to trade, but it'd be low-volume stuff. Not big enough to justify, say, major exploratory expeditions.

We have Manchus/Jurchen there in OTL all we just need is for them to have a baby boom.