If the Great Library was never destroyed?

[zeezack]

What if the Great Library was never destroyed, what kind of artifcats could it have contained and how advanced would we be now if it was still in action.

http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm

[nova2010]

I ve heard once on TV that the fire was a cover up in order to steal the documents and the documents that burned were copies not the original

[LemonySniffit]

Originally Posted by nova2010

I ve heard once on TV that the fire was a cover up in order to steal the documents and the documents that burned were copies not the original

And I suppose that they were taken to the Vatican?

[zeezack]

It held a vast number of manuscripts, but my question is really, how worthy were these scripts? Did they really contain amazing mathematics and science articles etc..

[nova2010]

Some end up to Vatican other to the Masons. I ve heard that one of the documents was a model of a steam engine and used the plans in order to build it in the late 18th century.

[Tyr]

Very very very little effect on science at all outside of Alexandria- where you may get local nutters copying various little experiments and whatnot, but nothing major. Science just doesn't work that way.
History though would be far better recorded as would Greek theatre and other aspects of Greek culture.

[zeezack]

What if that steam engine plan did exist in the great library? Could there be Greek machines similar to Da Vinci's? I concur with the cultural aspects being recorded fully, but are we sure science would not be affected? Or engineering?

[Tyr]

Originally Posted by zeezack

What if that steam engine plan did exist in the great library? Could there be Greek machines similar to Da Vinci's? I concur with the cultural aspects being recorded fully, but are we sure science would not be affected? Or engineering?

Since the renaissance knowledge of steam engines has been known amongst learned at people. However;
1: Steel making wasn't advanced enough to make ones that would be of much use.
2: There was no need for them.

The industrial revolution didn't come along when it did in original time line because people suddenly discovered the steam engine; economic and social factors set out a environment which eventually led to new engineering applications of the steam engine being developed.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by zeezack

What if that steam engine plan did exist in the great library? Could there be Greek machines similar to Da Vinci's? I concur with the cultural aspects being recorded fully, but are we sure science would not be affected? Or engineering?

The real issue isn't whether these docuiments stasy intact, but if they stay in circulation. The Greeks had machines like Da Vinci's, by all accounts, except theirs got built and actually worked. A good deal of the material actually survives, too. If the Museion stayed intact, more would. But as you can see, the survival of the material aloine is no guarantee of it being put to any use.

[usertron2020]

How does the Library get moved? Who pays for it? Where does it stay? What land in the (non)-Muslim world is stable enough to secure them through the whole of the Dark Ages? Medieval Times? In the Muslim world they destroyed what was left of it in 646, that's going to happen to whatever is left at the Library whether the Library is intact or not. Who pays for the upkeep of what are after all pagan writings? This is about the Library surviving some 500-700 years of Dark Ages where even food for the aristocracy was a vital concern.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

How does the Library get moved? Who pays for it? Where does it stay? What land in the (non)-Muslim world is stable enough to secure them through the whole of the Dark Ages? Medieval Times? In the Muslim world they destroyed what was left of it in 646, that's going to happen to whatever is left at the Library whether the Library is intact or not. Who pays for the upkeep of what are after all pagan writings? This is about the Library surviving some 500-700 years of Dark Ages where even food for the aristocracy was a vital concern.

I think the story about the Muslims destroying the Great Library was actually made up, by one Muslim ruler criticizing another.

IIRC the Great Library was destroyed, in part at least, by Julius Caesar. Carl Sagan believed the Christians of the city destroyed the library around the time they lynched the pagan philosopher Hypatia, but the histocity of that event has been called into question.

(I think someone on the board said the manuscripts were taken out and sold in the markets, not destroyed.)

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I think the story about the Muslims destroying the Great Library was actually made up, by one Muslim ruler criticizing another.

IIRC the Great Library was destroyed, in part at least, by Julius Caesar. Carl Sagan believed the Christians of the city destroyed the library around the time they lynched the pagan philosopher Hypatia, but the histocity of that event has been called into question.

(I think someone on the board said the manuscripts were taken out and sold in the markets, not destroyed.)

The damage done in 47 BC was just that, damage. It was Theodosius who destroyed all non-Christian works in 396 AD. The Muslims destroyed everything left between 646 and 649. Some people never learn by not reading, others by burning the library to the ground. *sigh*

[Mikestone8]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

IIRC the Great Library was destroyed, in part at least, by Julius Caesar.

In which case, of course, Hero's "steam engine" cannot have been in it as he lived almost a century later.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

No major effect on world history.

[mailinutile2]

The Library was burned down several times through history.
to which occasion do you refer?

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

The damage done in 47 BC was just that, damage. It was Theodosius who destroyed all non-Christian works in 396 AD. The Muslims destroyed everything left between 646 and 649. Some people never learn by not reading, others by burning the library to the ground. *sigh*

And the ruler of a pre-modern state without modern secret-police type apparatuses was able to destroy all non-Christian books how?

[Grimm Reaper]

MerryPrankster, by seizing and destroying all such works in the library. Or do you find it hard to imagine the Roman Empire being able to torch the books in a single library? This policy of destroying 'un-Christian' books would continue for centuries under the Catholic Church, which is why so many of the great works of antiquity were lost forever or had to be 'rediscovered' by importing surviving copies from the Byzantine Empire and the Muslim world.

I might add that Theodosius had an unusual definition of a non-Christian book to be destroyed under his policy. If a book wasn't about Christianity then it was, by his definition, non-Christian. If you wrote a cook book it would be slated for destruction as it was not about Christianity and there was no reason to tolerate such works.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

And the ruler of a pre-modern state without modern secret-police type apparatuses was able to destroy all non-Christian books how?

By telling the archbishop to do it, largely. The Museion library was in a pretty sorry state, and there were more than enough people in Alexandria willing to carry out such an order. With more enthusiasm than efficiency, no doubt, but it is a perfectly viable method, especially if you have folk in the mould of St Shenute around.

Of course, the order only ever extended to books held at the library, then at the Serapeion. Private collections were unaffected, except presumably through the halo effect such orders create in the zealous. Not even other libraries in the Empire were touched. The whole thing really was more a matter of authorising a local act of intimidation and sectarian violence against a high-profile pagan target than an effort to destroy literature. I doubt it was Theodosius' idea. To be quite blunt, he probably didn't care enough.

[mailinutile2]

From what I knew, his order was aimed against other christian sects (Arians and Nestorians) rather than against pagans.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The Church, with its Bishops, had increasing secular authority, in which they would challenge and dispute local governors, such was the case between the Patriarchs of Alexandria and the Praetorian Prefects of Egypt in the Fourth Century CE.

As for the burning in 47 BCE, I understand that Marcus Antonius made up for this after confiscating the Library at Pergamum and shipping them to Egypt.