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  #21  
Old April 15th, 2010, 08:33 AM
Just Leo Just Leo is offline
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Not to mention how the Amerika Bomber would fare against the AH Turbo-Buffalo.

Put another way it was vulnerable to the P-26 Peashooter (a ten year old design, in an era where every plane year of age was like a dog year) and absolute meat on the table for a Buffalo.[/QUOTE]
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  #22  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:00 AM
Cook Cook is offline
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The problem I have with a lot of the critics of potential alternative developments in technology in WW2 etc is that they donít accept that a lot of these things werenít developed because there was an emphasis on something else instead.

If the motivation had been there, of if someone had caught Hitlerís ear last (usually the winner) things would have been different.

And people criticising prototypes, please remember they are a test bed, you learn from them and then built a better production model.
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  #23  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:13 AM
tantalus1970a tantalus1970a is offline
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Originally Posted by Cook View Post
The problem I have with a lot of the critics of potential alternative developments in technology in WW2 etc is that they donít accept that a lot of these things werenít developed because there was an emphasis on something else instead.

If the motivation had been there, of if someone had caught Hitlerís ear last (usually the winner) things would have been different.

And people criticising prototypes, please remember they are a test bed, you learn from them and then built a better production model.
That's a good point.

It didnt help that at the start of the war Goering took Hitler to visit the Luftwaffe experimental station. But they both left with the impression that those designs they had seen were much further developed than they were and were about to enter service. So many of them were never chased up by the top brass, until it was too late. Hitler didn't really get what went into research and development; he thought that you ordered something and it turned up.

At the start of WW2 Britain put its industry on a full war footing (ie concentrate on weapons and war material first, everything else apart from food comes second). Germany didnt do this until AFTER they invade the Soviet Union. Hitler didnt want to deny the German people their luxuries (plus they thought they were going to win anyway). If Germany puts their industry on a war footing in 1939, that's a completely different ball game.
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  #24  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:14 AM
mailinutile2 mailinutile2 is offline
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ok, the project would be a militarly a failure and economically a waste.

but what would be the psicological (and political) consequences?

it is the first time that the american mainland is bombed by air from ... heck, I reckon it is the first time at all (would the 3 incendiary japanese bombs on the oregon woods count?).

ok, none of those bombs reached their targets, but they nevertheless fell on highly inhabitaed areas.

public opinion would demand some measures.
and there is the shadow of rockets in german propaganda.
I think the main problem would not be to have an effective militar counter-measure, but rather to counter a psichological fear in public opinion

what measures would be taken?
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  #25  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:37 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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If the british were lost, somehow, the US was planning a bomber just for that situation, the b-36:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36

And yes, the combat radius is something different than range. But think about the propaganda value if somehow the germans were able to bomb the US east coast. One solution could have been to modified the whole bomber to single, huge flying bomb, and after steering it to target, parachuted to ocean where u-boats could bring you back.
The another point is, ware there any use such a bombing missions? It may cause the same kind of reaction as the attack in Pearl Harbour. There could have been even casualties which are german-born or german-speak.
So personally I think it could have been better not to bomb US cities. But on the other hand, it is rationally thinking...
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  #26  
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:52 AM
trekchu trekchu is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
And yes, the combat radius is something different than range. But think about the propaganda value if somehow the germans were able to bomb the US east coast. One solution could have been to modified the whole bomber to single, huge flying bomb, and after steering it to target, parachuted to ocean where u-boats could bring you back.
The another point is, ware there any use such a bombing missions? It may cause the same kind of reaction as the attack in Pearl Harbour. There could have been even casualties which are german-born or german-speak.
So personally I think it could have been better not to bomb US cities. But on the other hand, it is rationally thinking...

That was actually considered in RL.
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  #27  
Old April 18th, 2010, 08:28 PM
Blair152 Blair152 is offline
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This project was subject too a lot of work all throughout the war, the Germans had planes with the capacity to reach America but not ones which could come back. Me 264's could have bombed New York and then their crew could potentially bail out to be rescued by submarine although this strategy was reckoned not worth the effort. At best they could perform limited damage to American production facilities for the expense of several aircraft and probably the crews as even if U-Boats dominated the East Coast (which they by no means did even in the early days of the war), the potential for a sea rescue by submarine is essentially nill.
Don't forget the Arado Ar 240. That would have made an excellent jet bomber.
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  #28  
Old April 18th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Blair152 Blair152 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cook View Post
The problem I have with a lot of the critics of potential alternative developments in technology in WW2 etc is that they donít accept that a lot of these things werenít developed because there was an emphasis on something else instead.

If the motivation had been there, of if someone had caught Hitlerís ear last (usually the winner) things would have been different.

And people criticising prototypes, please remember they are a test bed, you learn from them and then built a better production model.
Don't forget that there were three people working on a viable flying wing design during World War II. The Horten brothers, in Germany, and Jack
Northrop, in the United States. The XB-49 and YB-49 weren't built until after World War II ended, and the YB-49 was so inherently unstable that it
crashed and killed the test pilot. It wasn't until the B-2 Spirit came into use at the end of the '80s, that the flying wing was finally vindicated, because of fly-by-wire technology.
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  #29  
Old April 18th, 2010, 08:42 PM
Blair152 Blair152 is offline
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There is a claim that a Ju 390 made it to within 19 KILOMETERS of New York. It is utterly unsupported, no one who made or ordered any such flight was ever found, and Luftwaffe records have no information indicating it ever happened. The unsigned letter stating the flight happened is almost universally accepted as being a hoax.

If you mean recon flights, they they were conducting such flights, much like the UK, USSR, France, Japan and the United States. If you mean conducting flights at the edge of space (or at least 25,000 feet higher than any aircraft ever made) they were not.
The German Kondor maritime patrol plane, I think it was made by Dornier,
correct me if I'm wrong, was originally a long-range civilian airliner. It definitely had the range to reach New York.
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  #30  
Old April 18th, 2010, 09:28 PM
RogueBeaver RogueBeaver is offline
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The Condor only had a range of 2,000 nm maximum. That is nowhere near sufficient to fly from France to NY. It would have to land in Britain, Greenland and Iceland for refuelling for a one-way journey, thus making that possibility ASB.
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  #31  
Old April 18th, 2010, 09:50 PM
Snellius Snellius is offline
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Christ, not another one of these.
Uh.... if you can not stand some of the wanky threads....do not read them!!!

by the way some of them are just for discussion, to come up with better ideas, sadly enough there some accid .....who shoot off almost every ideawhich is not plausible...according to them
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  #32  
Old April 18th, 2010, 10:02 PM
CalBear CalBear is offline
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Originally Posted by Blair152 View Post
Don't forget the Arado Ar 240. That would have made an excellent jet bomber.
The Ar 240 had a RANGE (not combat radius, range) of 1,100 kilometers. Its roughly 6,000 KM from Germany to New York meaning a range of 12,000 KM is needed. So the Ardo is only 90% short.

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Originally Posted by Blair152 View Post
The German Kondor maritime patrol plane, I think it was made by Dornier,
correct me if I'm wrong, was originally a long-range civilian airliner. It definitely had the range to reach New York.
Okay, you're wrong. Per SOP.

It was made by Focke-Wulf.

It had a max range of 4,400 KM, assuming you loaded it with nothing but fuel. With a weapon or cargo load it has a max range of 3,700 KM. That gets it about 2/3 of the way before the crew goes swimming.
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  #33  
Old April 20th, 2010, 09:46 PM
AMF AMF is offline
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Originally Posted by Just Leo View Post
Not to mention how the Amerika Bomber would fare against the AH Turbo-Buffalo.

Put another way it was vulnerable to the P-26 Peashooter (a ten year old design, in an era where every plane year of age was like a dog year) and absolute meat on the table for a Buffalo.
An effective bombing campaign against the US mainland was beyond Germany's capabilities, unless one posits a POD that is many years before 1939, that gives the Axis a much larger economic base and a nuclear bomb.

Having said that, it seems to be impossible to me for the P-26 Peashooter or the Brewster Buffalo to intercept an "Amerika Bomber". There were several aircraft designs which are mentioned when German aerial attacks on US territory are discussed, but even the slowest of them had a higher top speed than the P-26 Peashooter, whose top speed was 234 mph / 377 km/h, according to the Wikipedia article.

Top speed of alleged "Amerika Bombers"
Junkers Ju 390 314 mph / 505 km/h
Messerschmitt Me 264 359 mph / 560 km/h
Focke-Wulf Ta 400 395 mph / 635 km/h
The Junkers 390 and Messerschmitt 264 existed in prototype form, while there were only drawings and a wind tunnel model of the Focke-Wulf Ta 400.

The top speed of the Brewster F2A-3 Buffalo was marginally higher than the slowest of the three bombers, it was 321 mph / 516 km/h, but I have my doubts whether that would have been enough for a successful intercept under most circumstances. Brewster Buffaloes had great difficulties intercepting Japanese bombers. The Wikipedia links to three typical Japanese bombers of the time show, that in two cases, these were slower even than the Junkers 390, and only the Kawasaki Ki-48 Lily had the same top speed as the Junkers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_G4M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ki-48
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  #34  
Old April 20th, 2010, 09:57 PM
Blue Max Blue Max is offline
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This project will lead to massive outright loss in Germany's economy, its wartime production and its ever limited fuel supplies.

I encourage this scenario, as this is likely to mean that WW2 has fewer allied Casualties, end more quickly and with lower total cost because Hitler has cleverly seen fit to screw his budget with an insane idea.

I also suggest that this Hitler busily invest in Maus Superheavy Tanks and Microwave Death Lasers. After all, who wants Hitler to win?
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  #35  
Old April 20th, 2010, 10:01 PM
BlackWave BlackWave is online now
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This project will lead to massive outright loss in Germany's economy, its wartime production and its ever limited fuel supplies.

I encourage this scenario, as this is likely to mean that WW2 has fewer allied Casualties, end more quickly and with lower total cost because Hitler has cleverly seen fit to screw his budget with an insane idea.

I also suggest that this Hitler busily invest in Maus Superheavy Tanks and Microwave Death Lasers. After all, who wants Hitler to win?
Maus tanks? Pah! I raise you steampunk AT-ATs!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/...8ac839e0_o.jpg

Precisely the kind of thing Hitler would like, but definitely not need!
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I'm glad somebody doesn't have to suck the entire universe into an event horizon to just invade the USA...

Fear the mutated Tiger tanks. Fear them.
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  #36  
Old April 20th, 2010, 10:05 PM
Blue Max Blue Max is offline
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Maus tanks? Pah! I raise you steampunk AT-ATs!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/...8ac839e0_o.jpg

Precisely the kind of thing Hitler would like, but definitely not need!


Reraised, BW.
(I can't believe this one was actually under consideration)

Call, Raise or Fold?
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  #37  
Old April 20th, 2010, 10:18 PM
CalBear CalBear is offline
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You can't look at the top speed. The Aircraft lacked the range at top speed to get half way. They had to use right around cruising speed to get sufficient range, Cruise was around 215mph.
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Originally Posted by AMF View Post
An effective bombing campaign against the US mainland was beyond Germany's capabilities, unless one posits a POD that is many years before 1939, that gives the Axis a much larger economic base and a nuclear bomb.

Having said that, it seems to be impossible to me for the P-26 Peashooter or the Brewster Buffalo to intercept an "Amerika Bomber". There were several aircraft designs which are mentioned when German aerial attacks on US territory are discussed, but even the slowest of them had a higher top speed than the P-26 Peashooter, whose top speed was 234 mph / 377 km/h, according to the Wikipedia article.

Top speed of alleged "Amerika Bombers"
Junkers Ju 390 314 mph / 505 km/h
Messerschmitt Me 264 359 mph / 560 km/h
Focke-Wulf Ta 400 395 mph / 635 km/h
The Junkers 390 and Messerschmitt 264 existed in prototype form, while there were only drawings and a wind tunnel model of the Focke-Wulf Ta 400.

The top speed of the Brewster F2A-3 Buffalo was marginally higher than the slowest of the three bombers, it was 321 mph / 516 km/h, but I have my doubts whether that would have been enough for a successful intercept under most circumstances. Brewster Buffaloes had great difficulties intercepting Japanese bombers. The Wikipedia links to three typical Japanese bombers of the time show, that in two cases, these were slower even than the Junkers 390, and only the Kawasaki Ki-48 Lily had the same top speed as the Junkers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_G4M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ki-48
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  #38  
Old April 20th, 2010, 10:22 PM
BlackWave BlackWave is online now
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Reraised, BW.
(I can't believe this one was actually under consideration)

Call, Raise or Fold?
Raise you 100-foot Nazi robot:

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I'm glad somebody doesn't have to suck the entire universe into an event horizon to just invade the USA...

Fear the mutated Tiger tanks. Fear them.
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  #39  
Old April 20th, 2010, 10:46 PM
AMF AMF is offline
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You can't look at the top speed. The Aircraft lacked the range at top speed to get half way. They had to use right around cruising speed to get sufficient range, Cruise was around 215mph.
To the best of my knowledge they even lacked the range at any speed to bomb the US East coast and return, and even if they had the range they would have been massacred by US fighters better than the Peashooter or the Buffalo. There is a reason I have begun my post with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMF View Post
An effective bombing campaign against the US mainland was beyond Germany's capabilities, unless one posits a POD that is many years before 1939, that gives the Axis a much larger economic base and a nuclear bomb.
There is also a reason why I have written "alleged" Amerika Bomber. Still it looks extremely unlikely to me that a plane like the Buffalo, let alone the P-26, could intercept these planes in anything like realistic conditions. Under normal conditions, combat planes carry fuel reserves for a "spurt" at a speed close to the maximum, in order to escape pursuing fighters. Apart from speed, there is also the fact that the Junkers 290 could have brought at least two 20mm cannon to bear, one in the tail and one of its dorsal turrets, against two .30 caliber guns of the P-26, and two .50 plus two .30 caliber machine guns of the Buffalo.
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  #40  
Old April 21st, 2010, 05:25 AM
Just Leo Just Leo is offline
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OK. How about P-38's then? And what is the size of the formation of Amerika Bombers being sent? What is the size of the bombload being carried? How much defensive armament and armor is being carried?

Bombers don't carry a "reserve" fuel load for a burst of speed. They carry what fuel they can to carry out the mission to the best of their payload/range capability.
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