Highly underused PODs with great potential

[Snotters Dad]

The French and Indian War is, at best, a stalemate.

[Mister Abbadon]

Originally Posted by Old Airman

Unlikely.It isn't like Russia snatched defeat from the jaws of victory IOTL. It was losing fair and square.

I know, I just want to see a larger russian Empire but I couldn't think of any other way to do it

[Emperor Norton I]

Originally Posted by Desmond Hume

1. Warren Harding gets his way and Irvine Lenroot becomes his running mate, with Lenroot then becoming President assuming Harding dies on schedule.

Perhaps underused, but someone has done this recently.

[Sigma7]

Just tossing a few out there, if they've been covered, my bad, if they've been used, link me up, I'd like to see them:

Boers retain Natalia Republic. (We never get Boer-wanks around here!)

Trebia every bit as catastrophic as Cannae for Rome. (Same with Carthage!)

Oregon Treaty creates an independent free state rather than a partition of the Oregon Country between The U.S. and Britain.

Stonewall Jackson killed at First Bull Run.

Columbus expedition lost at sea.

Cortez and his men wiped out, June 30, 1520.

Dutch maintain larger presence in the western hemisphere, particularly in the New Netherlands area; larger military force, more aggressive recruitment of settlers, etc...

No Stockholm Bloodbath in 1520.

[imperialaquila]

Originally Posted by Old Airman

Whole 17th century in Poland is one big underused POD. The country had been left to whims of ever-shifting coalition of all-powerful magnates, not linked to any particular province (each of magnates owned land in many areas of Poland). Taking into account that the country was a major regional player during that century, different composition of one of numerous magnate alliances could bring some major batterflies.

The Russia since death of Fedor Alexeevich Romanov till assassination of Pavel I is one big huge POD. The country went through two assassinations of supreme rulers (Peter III and Pavel I), three periods when death of a ruler left country with baby czar and highly incapable regents with powerful opposing forces (deaths of Fedor, Peter the Great and Anna Ioannovna) and more military mutinies of unruly garrisons of capital cities I could list off the top of my head. And remember that winner of those little games of throne was in charge of huge country with big population, which started the period as mighty regional power and ended it as supreme Great Power of the day, one of top 3 or top 5. If Sophia's Russia had been mentioned once or twice in passing, I don't think there's a lot of peoples here aware of mere existence of Ioann VI.

I agree. Poland was royally screwed over OTL. If they get a strong central leader sometime in the 1500s, and said ruler can establish a strong central government, there's no telling what they could acheive in the 1600s. In the early 1600s, Russia was in turmoil, Germany was about to destroy itself in the 30 years war...all oppertunities for a half-competent Polish monarch looking to expand his domains. Also, the rise of Prussia as a great power is by no means assured. They had a string of very good leaders. There were several German states, even up to the early 1700s, that outstripped Prussia in wealth and population. One or two bad rulers in the mix, or Saxony or Poland get some competent leaders, and Germany stays disunited for a long time.

[Sigma7]

Another culture that gets no love: The Manju.

What if Nurhaci and his immediate descendents found a strong Jin Dynasty and Manchurian Empire?



Take the above definition (plus Sakhalin) as a start point, then perhaps chunks of Mongolia, part of Hebei and the whole of Korea?

Obvious question that follows that: What becomes of China with no Qing Dynasty?

Further, what becomes of Japan? Possible conquest by the Jin? Or perhaps closer ties to the west to purchase weapons capable of deterring Jin invasion?

What of the Jin themselves? Extensive trade with the west to keep the Russians out OR extensive trade with Russia to protect their own sphere of influence in the far eat AGAINST the west?

[Rush Tarquin]

Iconoclasm remains the orthodoxy in the Byzantine Empire.

Constructivism and other avant garde art movements aren't purged from the Soviet Union and replaced with social realism.

Futurism promulgates a coherent political ideology and comes to power at an early date in Italy as a sort of proto-fascism.

Successful Spanish Armada (an oft-mentioned example of a POD but I don't recall much exploration of its long-term consequences).

Malta falling to the Ottomans (same as above).

Southeast Asian PODs such as Singapore remaining in the Federation of Malaysia, red/pink Malaysia, Indonesian success in the konfrontasi, Irian Jaya remaining Dutch in the immediate postwar etc.

I often get the feeling that many of the TLs on this site aren't too radically different from our own. It's good in the sense of producing timelines with a lot of detail and in-depth analysis and lots to discuss because everything is strangely familiar, but some PODs are simply brushed off as producing too many butterflies to work with. Why not take a wild stab every now and again and work backwards with the aim of increasing the realism?

[Kiljan Arlsan]

What if William Earl of Pembroke lost the battle of Lincoln in 1217?

[MNP]

Originally Posted by Rush Tarquin

I often get the feeling that many of the TLs on this site aren't too radically different from our own. It's good in the sense of producing timelines with a lot of detail and in-depth analysis and lots to discuss because everything is strangely familiar, but some PODs are simply brushed off as producing too many butterflies to work with. Why not take a wild stab every now and again and work backwards with the aim of increasing the realism?

I've said a few times but here's one reason: If you change things to much or they go on to long, you have fictional people doing fictional things in fictional places that only superficially are relatable It's not easy to keep things interesting over the long term. You can do it, but you have to really plot things out. Not every TL is Isaac's Empire.

Your last sentence I don't understand. Work backwards? You mean start with a huge different setting and figure out how it happened? We do that a lot.

That said a lot of the PoDs in this thread were incorporated into the outlines of my own TL a long time ago...

[Rush Tarquin]

Originally Posted by MNPundit

Your last sentence I don't understand. Work backwards? You mean start with a huge different setting and figure out how it happened? We do that a lot.

I guess we do. Usually as a thought exercise rather than as a more involved timeline, but I guess that's where your quite valid point about 'fictional people doing fictional things in fictional places' come in.

I've just been playing Red Alert 3 so I guess I'm currently in a mood for more fantastic (read campy) settings.

[Namaste]

Heavy British, French, Dutch, American, Italian, German, Russian, Belgian, Swedish and Danish immigration to all their colonies respectively during their colonial reigns.

[Medicus Verni]

Originally Posted by Sigma7

Another culture that gets no love: The Manju.

What if Nurhaci and his immediate descendents found a strong Jin Dynasty and Manchurian Empire?



Take the above definition (plus Sakhalin) as a start point, then perhaps chunks of Mongolia, part of Hebei and the whole of Korea?

Obvious question that follows that: What becomes of China with no Qing Dynasty?

Further, what becomes of Japan? Possible conquest by the Jin? Or perhaps closer ties to the west to purchase weapons capable of deterring Jin invasion?

What of the Jin themselves? Extensive trade with the west to keep the Russians out OR extensive trade with Russia to protect their own sphere of influence in the far eat AGAINST the west?

Compared to later Jin, I would like to see more TLs dealing with their ancestors who sat north of Song before the Mongol invasion. In the eyes of contemporaries, they had much more potential than these Manchus who had been reduced to part nomads afterwards. Later Jin really had their incredible stroke of luck to flourish and conquer the mammoth that was previously Ming even when it was decaying. Just the climate factor were one big godsend to them, as if the OTL was a Manchu wank

And if the Manchus had not catched the opportunity of climate-induced social problems in China, I doubt if the central government in China would allow such a "disturbance" inside their Nurkan region for any extended time.

Ming, or any central gov't in charge of the China proper would have the manpower while the Manchu at the time didn't, IOTL Manchus relied heavily on the surrendered people to do the job against their compatriots during their conquest. Comparing the odds, I find the previous Jin doing better would have been a more plausible outcome than having powers in the China proper to sit and look at their NE neighbor grow, or even allow them to conquer Japan. Either they go the Qing way, or they remain nomadic like IOTL before.

[Old Airman]

Originally Posted by Mister Abbadon

I know, I just want to see a larger russian Empire but I couldn't think of any other way to do it

There're easier ways to wank Russian Empire (pretty wanked as it was IOTL):
1. Ivan the Terrible (or his son) becomes king of PLC. PLC slowly integrated into *Russia (it would be a very different country).
2. Russia annexes Northern Iranian provinces, turning Caspian sea into it's internal lake.
3. Russia gets more of Eastern Armenia (fate of up to half of OTL Turkey might be discussed).
4. Russia annexes more of what we know today as Northern China and Chinese Turkestan (everything North of Harbin is up for grabs in late 19th century, as well as good chunk of Xinjiang)

[Emperor Norton I]

How about a no-atom bomb WW2 scenario that doesn't end with a Yellow Terror fueled kagillion person slaughter in Japan to end WW2? I don't think I've ever seen that which I why I wanna do it myself if I find the time.

[Sigma7]

Originally Posted by Tsana

Compared to later Jin, I would like to see more TLs dealing with their ancestors who sat north of Song before the Mongol invasion. In the eyes of contemporaries, they had much more potential than these Manchus who had been reduced to part nomads afterwards. Later Jin really had their incredible stroke of luck to flourish and conquer the mammoth that was previously Ming even when it was decaying. Just the climate factor were one big godsend to them, as if the OTL was a Manchu wank

And if the Manchus had not catched the opportunity of climate-induced social problems in China, I doubt if the central government in China would allow such a "disturbance" inside their Nurkan region for any extended time.

Ming, or any central gov't in charge of the China proper would have the manpower while the Manchu at the time didn't, IOTL Manchus relied heavily on the surrendered people to do the job against their compatriots during their conquest. Comparing the odds, I find the previous Jin doing better would have been a more plausible outcome than having powers in the China proper to sit and look at their NE neighbor grow, or even allow them to conquer Japan. Either they go the Qing way, or they remain nomadic like IOTL before.

Actually, after a quick perusal, that's actually a more intriguing POD, especially since it possesses the possibility of butterflying away the Mongol period.

Perhaps, as a POD, The Jinn attack The Khan's army immediately at Fox hill, rather than sending out a messenger who pretty much sells out the Jinn positions and force strength to the Mongols.

Looking for good material on the war between the Jinn and Mongols, but aside from Genghis Khan being there, so were Jebe, Muqali and Ogedei.

The loss of one or more of those generals, or Genghis himself, would have a major impact on the whole of human history itself, not just the fortunes of the Jinn.

The capture of Jebe, Muqali or, later on in the war, Subotai could have an even greater impact. For example, what if a captured Jebe could have been turned?

You present a far better POD than I did for a Manju-wank, or not even so much a wank but a plausible altered history with a massive ripple effect.

Russia and The Middle East alone, spared the Mongol ravages, would produce a far different world than the one we live in.

What would a dominant and lasting Jinn Dynasty have had on East Asia?

So many endless possibilities.

Perhaps if they'd just recognized that there's a time to attack rather than send a messenger...

[Petike]

The nominalists outweigh the realists in influence during the scholastic period of medieval philosophy.

The first university of the Kingdom of Hungary is founded already during the reign of the Anjou dynasty (Louis I. the Great, to be more specific).

Tobacco, potatoes and tomatoes are discovered earlier/later or (in ASB cases) never evolve at all.

More than 30 000 years ago, an early Cro-Magnon chieftan gets drunk and leads his people en masse toward the Americas instead of central Asia and Europe (where the Neandertals live happily ever after for several more millenia than in OTL).

Buddy Holly doesn't die in a plane crash and Elvis doesn't join the army.

The most recent ice age lasts until the present day.

Gustav II. Adolf of Sweden doesn't die in the Battle of Breitenfeld.

Percy Pilcher becomes the first aviator acknowledged to really fly in a steerable aircraft. (Or some other guy : Samuel P. Langley, Clément Ader, etc.)

The tribes of Old Hungarians are not defeated in the Battle of Lechfeld, keep rampaging for a few more decades and settle in much more western parts of Europe.

The Great Migration of the 4. and 5. century AD occurs earlier/later.

Beagle 2 is succesful.

Paper/silk/gunpowder is discovered earlier/later/elsewhere.

Islam becomes the new religion of Rurikid Russia instead of Orthodox Christianity.

The Sepoy Rebellion in India is more succesful and the subcontinet becomes independent from the British already in the 19. century (OK, bit of a wank and with the threat of immediate balkanisation into smaller empires and states).

Alternate versions of arts and architectural styles. Or at least alternate names for them, e.g. : "Cistercic" instead of the Michelangelo-coined "Gothic"...

[Sean Mulligan]

Have the Roman Emperor Julian live longer.

[Morgan Brykein]

The Congressional Apportionment Amendment being ratified with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

[Valdemar II]

Frederik VII producing a son. With Frederik unable to produce a heir it created a legitime excuse for Schleswig-Holsteinian seperatism. That may see like a small result but with no legitime reason for their rebellion. The German states may be unable to find excuse for supporting the Schleswig-Holsteinians. As result they may stay out of the war or only join in support of Federalism. As result we won't see the war of 1864, which lead to 1866. While Prussia may find another excuse, this may push the battle over dominance of Germany decades out in the future, or it may end in France taking on Prussia before that happening "forcing" Austria to join in the Franco-Prussian War. Resulting in a Grossdeutsch unification, with a weaker Prussia and in de facto union with Denmark, Galicia, Hungary and Croatia.

Or it may just go down as in OTL with a few different players.

[chrispi]

Here's one: Constantine's losing the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, and the mayhem that results!