Rommel's Barbarossa 1942 (Continued from Manstein in Africa)

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by chris N

Since the United States is now at war with Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy etc the leasing of Major French Warships to the Axis would be an act of war against the US.

Isn't this pretty much US lend-and-lease with Britain copied by Vichy-France and Nazi-Germany?

[chris N]

The US is at war with Nazi Germany and its Axis partners. Thus Vichy France is taking a big risk in doing what is being proposed. While you can make an arguement that it is not different from the US Lend Lease to Britain I would point out that the US has had a good relationship with France and that this action would totally destroy that relationship forever.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by chris N

I would point out that the US has had a good relationship with France and that this action would totally destroy that relationship forever.

Tensions between governments not necessarily imply a declaration of war.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by chris N

While you can make an arguement that it is not different from the US Lend Lease to Britain I would point out that the US has had a good relationship with France and that this action would totally destroy that relationship forever.

Like a bunch of philo-Nazi Eurocentric French fascists is ever going to care what "decadent demoplutocratic America" thinks of them and the country they rule. They identify it as a ideologically alien, potentially hostile entity anyway. They only really care about power, and just after Tiger and the 2nd Brinkmann meatgrinder, America doesn't look very threatening. Therefore, their only real concern is to secure France a cozy junior partner standing in Axis super-Europe which, they expect, is going to rule Eurasia soon and eventually the world.

[chris N]

Let me get this straight do you honestly believe that the American Government would just accept the fact that France is leasing Warships to a hostile power. I think that the Public reaction would be such that there would be a demand to strike back at the Vichy French. One might very well have US Submarines hunting and sinking Axis and Vichy French sips.

Electric Boat would be cranking out new submarines like crazy and the American Production line would also be turning out planes, tanks and ships even faster. I still believe that the first actions would be to seize all French Assets, occupy all French Colonies in the New World and to capture Dakar.
This would be a foothold in French West Africa. It might also allow the Free French a chance at rebuilding their honor and showing that the French could when properly led and equipped defeat the French.

[Jotun]

Again: Who drives the new boats that are there all of a sudden? Who flies the planes? Who ships the troops over to Dakar? Who says the hop over the big pond is going to be a success? (What's your fascination with Dakar anyway? )......

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Jotun

Again: Who drives the new boats that are there all of a sudden? Who flies the planes? Who ships the troops over to Dakar? Who says the hop over the big pond is going to be a success? (What's your fascination with Dakar anyway? )......

what is stop Brinkmann's fleet from cutting them off or contesting such a landing?... given his short approach he would have a massive advantage

[kenmac]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

The Vienna Conference (Chapter 22) Part V Diplomatic Operations
Vienna Austria March 1942

The last order of business to be handled during the Vienna conference was to create a united diplomatic front and to further the integration of the axis. Hitler had seized on this as being very important following the successful turnaround of the Italian army.

A special joint diplomatic headquarters would be set up at Vienna so that there would always be a subordinate governing body in effect. Hitler liked the idea so much that he added a military element to it as well agreeing that all joint operations and administration handeling would be done at Vienna. As a display of how seriously he took the venture he committed the Luftwaffe's veteran diplomat Wolfram Von Richtoffen to head the German delegation. He made it a point to make sure that the leader of each diplomatic mission would be entrusted with decision making power with the full consent of himself, the duce and the caudillo. Gradually the headquarters would be known as ASC (Axis Supreme Command)... they where given a fair amount of latitude in planning new operations and Richtoffen was a committed Nazi which assuaged any doubts Hitler had about delegating even the slightest amounts of his authority

Their first order of business was a new approach to Vichy France. Vichy had seen the writing on the wall as the Axis continued to pummel Great Britain from land sea and air. An offer of outright alliance was proposed by the ASC but Hitler vetoed the measure.

France had their chance... I don't wan't them to join the axis at best they might become a junior contributor or collaborater but they do not deserve in the slightest the glories or rewards that shall come to Germany, Italy and Spain for their heroic sacrifice.

Outright alliance would have been complicated within the political realm of France even up to this point anyway or at least the ASC convinced themselves. Instead Laval and Petain where invited to Austria for a different proposal.

Hitler had several points of leverage over the French, namely the ten's of thousands of pow's he was holding and using for labor (especially for the atlantic wall), and the ability to occupy the rest of France and put it under a nasty military regime (Franco in particular welcomed this notion because there where camps of Republican's and socialists right across the border from him that he would have enjoyed snuffing out)

In the end Laval and Petain had been swayed to help in the great crusade against communism anyway although they would maintain their neutrality towards the west.

The details:
Vichy to provide 38,000 men for formation of a motorized corps to be kitted and trained by the Germans (hopefully available for battle by October since many where allready trained soldiers)
POW's offered their freedom in return for 12 months service in the French Volunteer corps "Napoleon"
Axis fleet ships allows to make use of Vichy ports locally and around the world
Vichy to "lease" Dunquerqe and several other major warships to the axis

The axis agree not to disrupt or take over the Vichy government.
The axis agree to generous territorial allowances following the conclusion of the war
The axis promise to restore all of France from military occupation (excepting a few air and naval bases on permanent lease) 180 days after a successful conclusion of the war

The final agreement was something from a proposal from the ASC that France and the rest of the axis (including the minor partners like Romania) which united them economically. All tarriffs and port duties where removed to stimulate economic unity and crossing. Vichy was allowed to sign onto what would be termed the Vienna pact as well which greatly boosted their economy and improved the image and viability of the government

The conference closed and Hitler was thrilled... in a just a short time he had turned the axis into a major military and economic juggernaut ready to combat the United States and the Soviet Union in a long and brutal protracted conflict. He looked at his operations map of the world and smiled... Nation's that where subserviant to the axis where penciled in black... and the black lead had been spreading beyond his expectations the last few months. He held the pencil over Russia and took a deep breath

to be continued...

your thoughts?

Hitler was very keen for France to join the Axis in OTL I can’t see this changing here.
After all Spain has only been a member for a few months too.
The addition of the French fleet alone not to mention the strategic benefits of using Madagascar, West Africa and Syria and the French troops in them would be of great help to Germany.
If Waloonia and the Congo were handed over to France right away im sure the majority of the French would rally to the crusade against Communism and put at least as many divisions together to fight the USSR as Italy.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by chris N

Let me get this straight do you honestly believe that the American Government would just accept the fact that France is leasing Warships to a hostile power. I think that the Public reaction would be such that there would be a demand to strike back at the Vichy French.

Oh, it is quite possible that America rashly brings Vichy France in the war. Guess what ? They just made their problems even worse by adding yet another potential industrial and manpower powerhouse to the Axis gestalt. Powerful as America may be, fighting the integrated and well-directed resources of continental Europe is a very daunting task.

One might very well have US Submarines hunting and sinking Axis and Vichy French sips.

And Vichy French subs and surface ships gets added to the Axis fleet. Not only the existing ones, but French shipbuilding capability can easily match the Italian one, and if France joins the Axis, it is going to be mobilized in full. That means for starters another couple CVs added to the Axis fleet building program and how many destroyers and subs ? It's not as presently the Allies already face a dire risk of losing the Battle of the Atlantic, and Britain of being starved into defeat, even without France in the Axis.

Electric Boat would be cranking out new submarines like crazy and the American Production line would also be turning out planes, tanks and ships even faster.

Nonetheless, it is still going to take a year to rebuild the USN and build up the US Army to decent levels. In the meanwhile, the Axis is going to enjoy naval supremacy in the Atlantic, even more so with France in the bloc. Any rushed attempt to attack Africa or transfer troops to Britain runs very high risk of failure. And Britain already walks on the brink, any further major failure is very likely to knock them out of the war.

I still believe that the first actions would be to seize all French Assets,

Ohh, big threat. Just remind me of the last time ever that asset seizure successfully intimidated a great power ?

occupy all French Colonies in the New World

Sure, France is totally going to displease the guys that occupy its mainland for fear of losing a couple low-value Caribbean islands and a jungle penal colony. It's not like they can expect to get much better colonies in Africa if they reap brownie points with the Axis.

and to capture Dakar.
This would be a foothold in French West Africa.

Again: ATM the Allies do not have naval supremacy in the Atlantic. Brinkmann's fleet is in an excellent position to turn the landing attempt into a bloody failure. And another major failure is totally going to knock Britain out of the war.

It might also allow the Free French a chance at rebuilding their honor and showing that the French could when properly led and equipped defeat the French.

All 7,000 of them ? Good luck. ITTL the Free French did not get the opportunity to build up their forces with colonial levies from Allied-occupied African colonies, and mass defections of French colonial forces are not going to happen, with the Allied prestige so low, so they are still down to the pathetic 1940 numbers.

[BlairWitch749]

Caught with our pants down (Chapter 23)

The Atlantic April 1942

It was a phrase that Franklin Roosevelt didn't enjoy being bandied about. But more than a few people on the hill and in the newspapers had accused his government of getting caught with their pants down both by the airstrikes from operation Tiger and the infiltration of the Seawolves into critical infrastructure bottlenecks. All of that was of course peripheral... new ships could be built and the infrastructure repaired and guarded with vigiliance in the future. However one of his decisions that he was deeply regretting at the moment was the destroyers for bases deal he had reached with the British two years before. These ships had largely been lost in the Mediterranian or in the Brinkmann meatgrinders.

Although a massive shipbuilding program was underway that would soon see the U.S. Navy outnumbering the rest of the world combined they where in a moment of flux and weakness when operation tiger hit. With only 28 destroyers in the Atlantic fleet and the Panama Canal temporarily blocked resources for convoy defense where extremely slim. Tiger and the second meatgrdinder had allready subtracted 12 of the precious vessels from the active fleet. This in turn made the massive American commercial fleet extremely vulnerable to prowling U-boats which where increasingly aggressive due to their continued ability to resupply at sea since Brinkmann's last victory.

With the successful occupation of the entire Mediterranian basin, the Germans where able to transfer 14 type IX u-boats to the American shores and more where in the pipeline. Day after day ships within site of the coast where torpedoed or struck by deck guns. Light and noise discipline where terrible as the U-boat commanders coined Operation Drumbeat the second happy time.

Desperately short of escort vessels the U.S. Navy asked civilian vessels to patrol and report U-Boat sightings along both coasts. The famous author Ernest Hemmingway prowled up and down the east coast armed with a Thompson submachine gun and a satchel of grenades hopping to drop one down the conning tower of a U-boat. These civilian sorties despite the positive effect on morale had a negative effect on operations because the number of false sightings they reported dispersed the efforts of the actual Navy.

Discontent and political grandstanding where also becomming issues that Franklin Roosevelt didn't want to deal with. The seawolf attacks led to local and state officials across the eastern seaboard demanding federal manpower to protect their critical sites. The bombardments by the deck guns of the subs where even worse as these chased away beach going tourists and disrupted local economies. The mayor of Miami even went so far as to demand a squadron of battleships to protect his city from U-boats and aircraft.

The president was also faced with nearly impossible logistical challanges as his army increased massively in size. The need to train and equip 250 divisions plus a massive navy and airforce taxed all available production assets to the max. General Marshal had advised him that due to the need to furnish supplies to the British and the priority needed on destroyer construction that is would take 36 months at least for the army to reach full strength. They agreed that the first 25 divisions to be mobilized would be dispatched to England as shipping permitted. 4 divisions of marines would be sent to take the intiative and teach a lesson to the Japanese who where making progress in the Philipeans and against British possessions.

In his 10 years in office Roosevelt had never seen so many challanges but he picked good men. Of particular importance was his setting up the OSS under his longtime friend Bill Donovan formaly of the fighting 69th NY infantry regiment. They would train extensively in the sort of boom and bang operations that the seawolves where conducting. They would also train on counter espionage work and take over the task of eliminating spies from the FBI and use the most ruthless tactics imaginable.

to be continued...


your thoughts

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Originally Posted by Jotun

Although thing do look unusually good for the *Axis, I think we are not yet in wank-territory. There have been enough blunders and losses to discredit accusations of wanking...the results of standardization and a saner way of doing things seem to be´in the realm of possibility.

They have made a rather big one, deciding to wait with attacking the Soviet-Union even further. IOTL Stalin did not believe an attack would occure because he believed it was scheduled for 1942, at some time in 1940 or 1941 Hitler believed a soviet attack would occure in 1943 and he was being optimistic by far.
With Iran under axis control, India should or will soon be within reach of the european axis, while the Japanese are coming from the east. Because of that, an independentist revolt might not be that far away.
That might allow the axis to knock Britain out of the war, at least temporarly, the axis would be then be in a much needed better position.

[Eurofed]

Interesting. I hope for the poor GIs that FDR can rein in his revenge urges and eagerness to buffer up Britain till he has substantially rebuilt his Atlantic fleet, or Brinkmann is going to teach those 25 divisions to swim very soon.

With the situation in the Atlantic being that serious (although fully expected), my doubts about Britain remaining in the war for long grow more and more. They are not in the position of withstanding a serious disruption of their shipping.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

They have made a rather big one, deciding to wait with attacking the Soviet-Union even further. IOTL Stalin did not believe an attack would occure because he believed it was scheduled for 1942, at some time in 1940 or 1941 Hitler believed a soviet attack would occure in 1943 and he was being optimistic by far.

The advantages of retooling the Wehrmacht to full effectiveness with up-to-date panzers, having full access to the Middle East and its resources, and building up the Italians, Spanish, French, Hungarians, and Romanians (quite possibly the Turks, too) to same efficiency level into a fully-integrated pan-European army largely outweight the drawbacks of giving the Red Army an extra level of build-up. It shall be a year and more before America can expect to send its troops to the Old World with any real hope of success, and even Soviet Russia at its 1944 peak of efficiency was not so good that it could take on integrated most of Europe (and Turkey, and Japan) at its own peak of efficiency and win.

With Iran under axis control, India should or will soon be within reach of the european axis, while the Japanese are coming from the east. Because of that, an independentist revolt might not be that far away.
That might allow the axis to knock Britain out of the war, at least temporarly, the axis would be then be in a much needed better position.

Well, with the Axis looking so good, and Britain so low, the chances of Subhas Chandra Bose having success aren't bad, if the Axis give him good support. But an Axis offensive in India would be a fool's errand. Their control of the Middle East must be focused to get abundant access to oil, getting Turkey on their side, and giving Russia a third front. There are far better chances of knocking Britain out by starving it out of supplies. Britain was not self-sufficient as foodstuffs went, and with the loss of the Middle East, its industry and military was direly dependent on American oil (and other commodities). With the Allies so weak in the Atlantic, this is the moment to make a supreme effort to blockade Britain. British morale cannot stand another major setback, but it is much easier to strike them in the Atlantic than in India. Of course, if Chandra Bose can set India to flames on his own with some Axis support, even better.

BW, a note about France. The French PoWs actually were quite plentiful (about 1,500,000). If they are given the option of liberation if they make a one-year volunteer term of service in Russia, I expect a lot of them (certainly not all, but surely a substantial amount) will bite it. Their own government would strongly support it, the Axis looks like a powerful and winning ally and there is no great love for Soviet Russia, many soldiers would choose another term of service in a victorious war rather than waiting the end beyond barbed wire. Therefore, we are likely contemplating say a 400,000 to 800,000 men French volunteer corps in Russia. That's a rather sizable addition to the Axis build-up and Barbarossa strategic plan. With the integration of French economy in the Axis gestalt, France can pull its own weight about equipping their own volunteer corps, but it's stil a rather big addition to Barbarossa. The chances of Stalin look direr and direr.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Therefore, we are likely contemplating say a 400,000 to 800,000 men French volunteer corps in Russia. That's a rather sizable addition to the Axis build-up and Barbarossa strategic plan.

I rather doubt if that many French would voluntarily risk their lifes for Germany instead of staying as POWs in "safe" Germany, especially considering the how those potential volunteers were not that excited to fight for their motherland...

At the moment, I'd say that the most likeliest outcome is that the Axis do not get that much from France as they hoped in the current situation, yet the British and Americans do something which drives France into the arms of the Axis, and Hitler finally accepts France as an ally to get more troops and more ships.

By the way: another interesting outcome would be if France remains sort of "neutral" as Hitler planned so far, this state is respected by the Allies and France takes over responsibility for "Plan Madagaskar"...

[John Farson]

Regardless of whether or not this TL is plausible, it certainly is becoming a very bleak one.

Either it'll end up as a Naziwank, in which case bye-bye Jews, Roma, homosexuals, Slavs and other "undesirables." By the millions. With the war lasting longer the Final Solution will inevitably be more murderous. Or it'll end up as a Sovietwank with the Red Army first repelling the later Op. Barbarossa and then steamrolling all the way to the Atlantic. Or it'll end with the Americans nuclear carpetbombing Germany a'la TBO. How bleak the world is can be defined by the fact that the last option might be the least painful one for the world at large. And this is all without taking into account what's happening in Asia. It's ironic that TBO was originally written as a "take that" to all the Nazi-victory scenarios and stories in AH, to show that German victory in WWII was impossible no matter what, and that better and prolonged German success would only be that much worse for everyone, especially the Germans, in the end.

Actually, the Allies do have one thing better here than TBO, and that is that the British Isles aren't occupied by the Germans. So Britain can still be used as a springboard for an invasion of Europe.

In any case, having read this I'm glad it's not the world we live in.

[Jotun]

Originally Posted by John Farson

In any case, having read this I'm glad it's not the world we live in.

That goes without saying, of course. I'd much prefer rast's "A shift in priorities" world to live in

I am just very intrigued by the way BW managed to quite plausibly do away with most of the most pressing problems that hampered OTL's Third Reich's war efforts and I am interested in seeing where all of this is going to end...and it's quite refreshing to actually have the W-Allies (especially ole Roosevelt) display outright nastiness for a change. The behavior shown right after "Tiger" was frighteningly plausible...

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Originally Posted by John Farson

Or it'll end with the Americans nuclear carpetbombing Germany a'la TBO. How bleak the world is can be defined by the fact that the last option might be the least painful one for the world at large. And this is all without taking into account what's happening in Asia. It's ironic that TBO was originally written as a "take that" to all the Nazi-victory scenarios and stories in AH, to show that German victory in WWII was impossible no matter what, and that better and prolonged German success would only be that much worse for everyone, especially the Germans, in the end.

Actually, the Allies do have one thing better here than TBO, and that is that the British Isles aren't occupied by the Germans. So Britain can still be used as a springboard for an invasion of Europe.

Lol, a scenario assuming that a victorious axis would have an air defence as weak as that of Japan in the lasts months of IOTL´s war???



I thought those scenarios where the Me-263 and the super-submarines turn back the tide of the war where slightly ASB but I was wrong, WRONG!!!

[BlairWitch749]

Panzers in Manilla (Chapter 24)

The Pacific April 1942

Concurrent with their massive attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese had commenced their landings on the island of Luzon. A critical last minute addition was a battalion of Panzer MK 4's. These 39 tanks would prove a critical add on. The men had gone through three weeks of intense training with Hauptmann Hans Bolter of the 4th Panzer Division. He taught the Japanese to make maximum use of the striking power and mobilty of their Panzers.

Supporting the elite 16th and 48th Japanese divisions the 1st independant tank battalion overran the weak and understrength 11th and 71st Philippino divisions. They had less than 30 percent of their authorized artillery strength and even where their 37mm anti tank guns or 75mm artillery pieces where in place the Panzers where able to overrun them and crush them beneath tracks.

Despite being outnumbered 3:2 the Japanese where able to make excellent progress. Facing a demoralized enemy and taking advantage of their armor and air superiority they where able to take large numbers of prisoners driving the American's and their allies into the Bataan and the Corregidor. The Panzer MK 4's where able to make daring thrusts behind the lines only slowing to refuel and rearm. After 14 weeks of unremittant combat and heavy losses Douglas Macaurther was forced to ask for terms for his army which was burdened with thousands of wounded and starving men.

The collapse had come so fast and the American's had been so throughly disorganized that it was nearly impossible for them to evacuate even a trickle of forces. With Enterprise sunk and Saratoga on the west coast for repairs, only Lexington could project airpower in the Pacific and she was helping to guard Pearl from future attacks until she could be reinforced. This allowed major fleet carriers from the 1st carrier group to support the attack on the Philippeans and interdict lines of communication and retreat.

Other task forces hand landed in the Malaya Peninsula, Guam, Wake Island, and Midway Island and with the support of their airpower had made major strides.

Within a few months all carrier aircraft would be replaced with the FW-190F which would greatly increase their combat capability. Production lines had finally been transitioned to the German designs which where continously proving themselves

to be continued...

your thoughts

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

A side note to these developments should be mentioned. When Manstein had discovered that the British had penetrated the German Enigma communication network back in September the Abwer had conducted a brutal self review. What they found was disturbing across the board but one of the most serious revalations was that the British had turned every single agent sent to the home islands under Operation Double Cross. Admiral Canarais planned a retaliatory operation to let the British know what he thought of their games.

A team of 9 seawolves who had spent long periods of time in England and Ireland where given a dangerous mission. A single JU-52 intermixed itself with a group of Luftwaffe bombers and dropped the men into England during a night bombardment. These men infiltrated the British small arms training school at Dover and opened fire on the recruits murdering 20 young soldiers before disapearing and dispersing for future attacks.

to be continued...

your thoughts?

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn´t breaking the Enigma code and the double-agents in Germany one of the essential things why the invasion of Normandie was sucessfull?
There is also the battle of the Atlantic, submarine campaign could not have succeded IOTL because of the breach of German codes, now there are chances of a (temporary) success.
Even when RAF and USAAF becomes too powerfull in much of the Atlantic (in 1944), the submarines could be deployed in the Indian and Pacific Ocean, good luck airpatrolling these two!

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Nonetheless, if Hitler, again, does the smart thing, sets up a local Dutch fascist government and gives it a peace treaty which ends military occupation and gifts Netherlands with Flanders, it is reasonable to expect that such a regime may get at least the passive cooperation if not the allegiance of most Dutch.

Such governement would be denounced by Washington as nothing but a puppet state.

[chris N]

Give me a break the Japanese would not switch to producing copies of the Fw190.. It just wouldn't make any sense. It is also unlikely that Panzer IV would be in the Pacific. The Japanese did fairly well with the tanks that they had. It would be more likely that Germany would help them to improve their design.

Let me say this if the Axis was overrunning Europe and the Middle East then the US would have been excoriating its production of Weapons and thus there would be a lot more weapons coming down the pipeline. The US might very well have stuck back at the Japanese with the airpower in the Phillippines rather than letting it get caught on the ground.