Overlooked clichés

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Finn

What is a Korea?

Japan's backyard, or China's front...or an annex to Siberia...

[RGB]

Originally Posted by maverick

Japan's backyard, or China's front...or an annex to Siberia...

..or a good excuse for any of the three above to go to war with each other.

That said, Korea got a lot of lousy breaks in history and could have done much better if things were a little different.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

A figleaf for who's benefit? If Greece is enough of "a Russian client" that the Russians can go dropping Constantinoples in its direction, Britain and France aren't buying it. And if they control it tightly enough to trust that it will never jump ship, they don't need to make presents to it; if they don't, they can't afford to.

The Ottoman Empire/Turkey/whoever it is that controls the City of the World's Desire and Anatolia (Anatolia is enough, but the Balkans and the Mashriq only re-enforce the principle) is a fairly substantial country. Russia is a massive country. Greece is a small country. It's really mathematics.

And as AHP says, the Bulgarians are closer, have no particular reason to be less powerful than Greece (that's just how 1878-1918 unfolded in our world), and do have a reason to be considered a more reliable sidekick by Russia.

Interesting point. Your argument has much merit as it concerns a close to OTL PoDs. However, I've also developed this very angle in my USAO timeline, where at the moment *ACW/*WWI just occurred and the Alliance of Union, Germany, Russia, Italy, Netherlands, Hungary, Greece, and Egypt crushed the League of Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Confederacy, Ottoman Empire, Persia, and Brazil. I have been uncertain what to do with the former Straits Free Zone (which was previously under the joint control of the great powers, a concession from Russia to Britain and France when it defeated them and Austria, in alliance with Prussia and Murattian Naples and gutted Turkey at the end of the *Napoleonic Wars) in the peace deal, whether to give it to Russia, Greece, or a condominiium. At last, I kept it a nominal international zone under the control of Russia, Greece, Germany, and Italy, even if de facto Greece controls internal affairs an Russia has military control. But I'm uncertain of my choice. Bulgaria isn't an issue, Russia annexed it with Moldavia and Wallachia at the end of the *Napoleonic Wars. Would you like to come and debate the issue ? I could use the advice.

Napoleon has no interest in the Greek nationalist movement: it's a threat to the Ottoman Empire, which he held up as much as he could (remember Sebastiani?) in order to deny Russia opportunities. In fact, it's exactly that: a Russian opportunity, since the whole movement was deeply Orthodox, and without Metternich's influence they'll jump on the chance. And Napoleon, as well as being no idealist in private (I don't believe he had any objection in principle to selling out the Poles in 1811), never displayed any Philhellenism. He was rather taken with Islam during his stay in Egypt, in his own unique "I'll write a couple more books to the Koran and ride into Mecca on an elephant as a new prophet" way.

Another point with merit. However, I was hypothesizing that Napoleon could change opinions about Greece as an effect of a different, wider POD. You see, I had this PoD on the backburner for some time and we are currently in the planning stage for a collaborative TL (a variant of USAO) about a successful Napoleon destroying Austria and Prussia in 1805-06, building his empire in a more organic European neo-Roman/Carolingian/HRE fashion (which makes the Germans and Italians loyal supporters of his empire), making Poland and Hungary into vassal states, and taking a strategic defensive stance against Russia (instead of invading Russian steppes, he waits for and smashes Russian army after Russian army in Eastern Europe till Russia is exhausted).

In this development, we authors assumed that Napoleon could take a Philellene stance just like he allied with the other European nationalisms and move against the Ottoman Empire either after he bled Russia to exhaustion or in a cooperative enterprise with Russia. Politically, the liberation of Greece and rebuilding a vassal neo-Byzantine state vibes well with selling your self to the European peoples as Augustus and Charlemagne reborn.

[Medicus Verni]

I am not so sure about its frequency, but I would be somewhat incensed to see a NE Chinese border bearing exact resemblance to the OTL one no matter how the TL is radically different from ours, even in pre-Qing/pre-modern ones. I just don't see how very possible that the powers must divide their land along that particular river. The line can be much south or north or any where else, but please not that river again if no justification is given.

And Taiwan, it seems a natural tendency for this island to fall into the hands of any colonizing powers. Besides China. Never mind the huge amount of Minnan people residing, they will be peacefully added to our fledging <insert name here but no Chinese> empire without any fuss, or lifting any eyes in the Imperial court even when they have no troubles at the moment.

I am not opposed to country-screw, but when writers do that they have to give standing reasons and not just handwaving away the cultural cohesion factor.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Tsana

And Taiwan, it seems a natural tendency for this island to fall into the hands of any colonizing powers. Besides China. Never mind the huge amount of Minnan people residing, they will be peacefully added to our fledging <insert name here but no Chinese> empire without any fuss, or lifting any eyes in the Imperial court even when they have no troubles at the moment.

Err.. but those people only were a majority sometime in the 17th century or so? When the Dutch arrived, the island wasn't ruled by the mainland, and I don't think it had a Chinese majority, by any definition of 'Chinese'.

From Wiki (yes, I know, sigh)

It was colonized by the Dutch in the 17th century, followed by an influx of Han Chinese

emphasis added.

I don't get the impression that Qing control over the island was very tight for a century or so after they conquered the place, either.

Oh, and the Japanese ruled it 'successfully' for 50 years.

Moreover, continental Chinese empires (with a few exceptions) were very much not naval-oriented.

So why wouldn't it be conquered by any significant maritime power in the area. Sure looks ripe for plucking to me.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Tsana

And Taiwan, it seems a natural tendency for this island to fall into the hands of any colonizing powers. Besides China. Never mind the huge amount of Minnan people residing, they will be peacefully added to our fledging <insert name here but no Chinese> empire without any fuss, or lifting any eyes in the Imperial court even when they have no troubles at the moment.

Or, for that matter, I never see any TLs with an independent Formosa. There are plenty of opportunities for Formosa to remain outside the China orbit (indeed, the migrations of Min Nan and Hakka people to Formosa could almost bear a resemblance to the 'peopling' of America's European element pre-1776), but so far I don't see any of them given the light of day.

[Hresvelgr]

The "lousy gringo wetback" thread reminded me of another cliche that is all to prevalent, the Emperor of Mexico. Everyone puts one on the throne. Even Harry Turtledove, for very little reason. And then everyone else started to do it do, and it was pretty much the rule in CS-victory TLs, whether or not the confederates gave a rat's ass about the French. And it sometimes extends beyond Mexico, people seem to be absolutely obsessed with the idea of creating new monarchies and preserving every tenuous tinpot emperor? They just found out there as a monarch in Brazil in the 1800's? He stays emperor to the present day! Want to seem original and make America different? Make ol' Town Destroyer king!

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Hresvelgr

The "lousy gringo wetback" thread reminded me of another cliche that is all to prevalent, the Emperor of Mexico. Everyone puts one on the throne. Even Harry Turtledove, for very little reason. And then everyone else started to do it do, and it was pretty much the rule in CS-victory TLs, whether or not the confederates gave a rat's ass about the French. And it sometimes extends beyond Mexico, people seem to be absolutely obsessed with the idea of creating new monarchies and preserving every tenuous tinpot emperor? They just found out there as a monarch in Brazil in the 1800's? He stays emperor to the present day! Want to seem original and make America different? Make ol' Town Destroyer king!

???Mexico had Emperors 3 different times, IIRC, it's entirely plausible they'd have one later, IMO.

If Dom Pedro hadn't been so obnoxious (trying to have his cake and eat it too), Brazil might have an emperor today.

Town-Destroyer appears as a king in lots of TLs. He was certainly proposed for it.

So, ???

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

???Mexico had Emperors 3 different times, IIRC, it's entirely plausible they'd have one later, IMO.

Err, two times. Once immdiatly after independence, and the Habsburg. Santa Ana was no Emperor And in both cases the Empire always lasted two or three years before being overthrown. The idea can hence been seen as seriously unpopular in Mexico.

Brazil is a different case, though. A lasting monarchy there is more possible. Of course, the problem there is the general instability of the region. It just takes one coup to end the monarchy, and coups are a plenty in Latin America, at least IOTL and also will be IATLs unless there are some wider changes...

[Hresvelgr]

1. The Mexican emperors were none too popular, especially later on after they spent so much time as a republic. Max was only emperor because the French wanted a puppet to rule Mexico, not because the Mexicans actually wanted one.

2. I referred to Brazil as an example of many writers' obsession with creating as many monarchies as possible, no matter how little they understand the countries in question.

3. Yes, I know. I was being sarcastic. Town Destroyer is probably the single most commonly proposed monarch.

[Medicus Verni]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Err.. but those people only were a majority sometime in the 17th century or so? When the Dutch arrived, the island wasn't ruled by the mainland, and I don't think it had a Chinese majority, by any definition of 'Chinese'.

From Wiki (yes, I know, sigh)
emphasis added.

I don't get the impression that Qing control over the island was very tight for a century or so after they conquered the place, either.

Oh, and the Japanese ruled it 'successfully' for 50 years.

Moreover, continental Chinese empires (with a few exceptions) were very much not naval-oriented.

So why wouldn't it be conquered by any significant maritime power in the area. Sure looks ripe for plucking to me.

Fair enough, I was just pointing out the relative few subversions,
like an independent Formosa as Dan mentioned and/or the Chinese/Formosan polities on the island
successfully fending off any colonizing powers afterwards, in that case I am specifically pointing to the many Japans in ATLs. While I do understand the technological advance, the natives could have put up a better fight, either against armies from central dynasties or any colonizers. Anyway, your rationale is perfectly valid in TLs bearing fair-to-good resemblance to OTL though.

The OTL surely sees intense actions on the Far East seas and intentions to eat up Formosa, but if it always had to be like that without subversion it would be rather tedious. After all subversion is a great literary device

The rule from Fort Zeelandia or the Spanish was not all over the Island too at any time period; If no love for Chinese, what about wanking Middag?

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

It doesn't matter what the POD is, though - Greece always gets Istanbul and the Aegean coast of Asia Minor. Forget that Greece wouldn't have a prayer of doing this under any context but the Ottomans having been smashed in a Great War and having the British support their attempt - and it's way, way more likely that Russia or Britain would end up with it. And even failing that, if a small country is going to get it, Bulgaria is way, way more likely than Greece.

Well, it might not be overlooked, since people often do call the guilty parties on it these days, but yes, it does sometimes happen that people fall for that (sometimes as an explicit goal, even when the point of the TL is supposed to be something entirely different than severely misguided Hellenophilia).

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

Not to comment on the main issue, these are mostly rather poor or mixed examples. Scania was "ethnically" Danish (their dialect is closer to Danish even today, IIRC, and they kept up a protracted resistance to Sweden for some decades); the Schleswig-Holstein thing was because of ethnic borders.

Well, the southern Scanian dialects are, it is true, fairly close to the northern Bornholm dialects. Overall, though... nah, the Swedes were good at the forced assimilation thing (granted, the Danes helped); Scanian is generally closer to Reichsswedish* than that thing they talk over on the other side of the Sound.
*...okay, so officially that is supposed to be Standard Swedish, but Reich is English-by-technicality, and Reich is the German word for Riks, so...

[maverick]

Revived Kalmar...seemingly nothing can keep the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians from each other in ATL...

[Medicus Verni]

Originally Posted by maverick

Revived Kalmar...seemingly nothing can keep the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians from each other in ATL...

Because it sounds romantic enough, and it eliminates the troubles of dealing with three separate polities... But otherwise I agree with you.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Tsana

The rule from Fort Zeelandia or the Spanish was not all over the Island too at any time period; If no love for Chinese, what about wanking Middag?

That would be interesting to see.

[Ofaloaf]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

From Wiki (yes, I know, sigh)
emphasis added.

I don't get the impression that Qing control over the island was very tight for a century or so after they conquered the place, either.

That's because Chinese settlement of Taiwan was related to the fall of the Ming dynasty, and had very little to do with the arrival of the Dutch on the island. If the Ming still fall in a similar way to OTL, than it's likely that Taiwan would rapidly Sinofy (is that a word?), while still likely being in opposition to whatever new government is established on the mainland.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Susano

Err, two times. Once immdiatly after independence, and the Habsburg. Santa Ana was no Emperor And in both cases the Empire always lasted two or three years before being overthrown. The idea can hence been seen as seriously unpopular in Mexico.

Oops! I stand corrected. I thought someone else was emperor (probably conflating Santa Ana's come-backs with him being emperor or something).

OK, Mexico an empire is very unlikely, I agree.

Originally Posted by Susano

Brazil is a different case, though. A lasting monarchy there is more possible. Of course, the problem there is the general instability of the region. It just takes one coup to end the monarchy, and coups are a plenty in Latin America, at least IOTL and also will be IATLs unless there are some wider changes...

Umm... but if you have a longer, successful monarchy then it might well make a come-back later. Look at France, as a wild example, switching between Kingdom, Republic and Empire. Admittedly, that's an extreme example. One could also cite Iran and Spain for re-instatements of a monarchy.

[machine3589]

1. People commonly use the term "Allies" (in its WWII meaning) when talking about the Entante. Nobody seems to notice this.

2. A fair number of people also use the term "Axis" when talking about the Central Powers.

[IndigoYeti]

Originally Posted by Hresvelgr

Town Destroyer is probably the single most commonly proposed monarch.

Just who is this town destroyer?

[Ridwan Asher]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Well, it might not be overlooked, since people often do call the guilty parties on it these days, but yes, it does sometimes happen that people fall for that (sometimes as an explicit goal, even when the point of the TL is supposed to be something entirely different than severely misguided Hellenophilia).

It's much less often overlooked these days.... But really, while today's situation is more balanced, it's just when compared to the past. Helleno-wank has been still pushed more often, and I say "pushed", because it is more of being pushed, rather than having the scenario's plausibility as the top priority. Like, seriously, Greek Ankara with 19th century PoD ??

Such things happen in Ottoman-wank too. With handwaviums, just by judging on similarities in language and Turkic roots, you see in some scenarios that OE expanding its direct control, of all things, to Central Asia....