Canadian Power: The Canadian Forces as a Major Power

[TheMann]

I'm sure that most countries would have decent military forces, whether they are a lot bigger than OTL, I don't know, exactly.

I'll revive the Foot Guards in 2008, especially as 2008 and 2009 will prove to be very interesting years for the Canucks, and in particular their prestige in the world......

[TheMann]

2008 (Part 1)

2008 would go one to be one of the wildest and most out of control years in modern memory, proving to be a year of chaos, opportunity, tragedy and hope. Many would go on to call 2008 a year rivaling the influence of 1989, and it started off, perhaps not surprisingly, in Pakistan.

Battered by their almost total defeat in Afghanistan, the Taliban regrouped among the lawless tribal regions of Pakistan. Multiple attempts by the Pakistani Army in previous years had failed miserably at kicking them off their perch, and many rumors about how much of Pakistan's Army was loyal to President Pervez Musharraf, and his successor, Benazir Bhutto, were rampant. The 2008 Pakistani elections were racked by problems, from Musharraf's ham-handed attempts at shifting the playing field in his favor to the attempt on the life of Bhutto in Karachi, where she survived but 82 people were killed, made things worse. The Taliban and their allies by March controlled large portions of the nation.

Bhutto, who came to power on April 21, was not about to take this problem lightly - the Taliban in 1999 had called for her death simply because women supposedly had no right to govern, and the attempt on her life in December 2007 had enraged many of her supporters. One of her first orders was to order much of Pakistan's Army and Air Force for a major campaign to eradicate the Taliban, and she thoughtfully warned both Iranian and Afghan authorities and the ISAF of the coming attack, proposing that they patrol their borders to ensure nobody escapes into Iran or Pakistan. In both cases, the advice was taken and accepted. US President Gore stepped up his involvement in Afghanistan in preparation, deploying an extra 10,000 troops in Afghanistan in May 2008 as backup for the patrol forces. Pakistan's effort trough May 2008 racked up mountains of casualties on both sides, though it appeared that both sides could not handle the other completely within about two weeks. The biggest issue, however, was that the ISI, Pakistan's infamous intelligence agency, was not particularly loyal to Bhutto - in fact, large portions of it quite openly sided with the Taliban, and several parts of the Pakistani Army would not take orders from her. Fighting hard to keep control, Bhutto finally did the inevitable on June 6 and called for foreign help to be deployed into Pakistan, saying that they needed the help beating the Taliban.

But the Taliban played against her.

The next day, the first in a series of massive terrorist attacks ripped through India, the first one hitting the Birla Mandir Temple in Hyderabad. Over the next four days, thirteen attacks hammered India, one of the ugliest being a suicide attack against Indian aircraft carrier INS Viraat which resulted in severe damage to the carrier and over 60 dead sailors. By the time the attacks had ended, over 500 people had died. And the worst thing done was a public announcement on June 11 that the ISI had masterminded the attacks in India, saying that the Indians would not attack as long as foreign forces were in the country. At the same time, one of the Pakistani Army units did not attack the taliban areas as ordered - but instead attempted to storm into Kashmir, claiming that it was Indian-occupied territory.

India, absolutely furious, did exactly that the Taliban supporters wanted them to do, in a move that would have major reprocssions. India made it clear that Pakistan would pay for the attacks, and that any nation that deployed forces to help Pakistan would immediately be at war with India. This efectively left Bhutto in a horrid position - stop fighting the Taliban to defend against India and see extremists take over the country, or focus on the Taliban and be unable to stop a potential Indian invasion. This reaction also disgusted leaders around the world, with British PM Gordon Brown saying to the Indians "This is exactly what the extremists want you to do. If you want them to come to justice, let us go in and help Pakistan destroy the extremists." India listened to the proposals, but with Indian public opinion wanting Pakistani blood for the blood in India, would not back down.

On June 15, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, Germany and South Africa bit the bullet and made it official - they were deploying to help Pakistan, whether India likes it or not. As the only carrier of these nations in the Indian Ocean at the time, HMAS Australia was deployed to support the effort. fearing trouble, HMS Queen Elizabeth II and HMCS Warrior quickly rushed out of their homeports and headed for the Indian Ocean. The Indians, furious, ordered out Canadian businessmen, tourists and everybody else who had a Canadian passport, including the ambassador and consulate officials. That also rang true for all of the other countries except South Africa, which the Indians allowed to stay. The Canadian Airborne Regiment powered out of Trenton on June 17, headed to a staging point in Bandar Abbas, Iran. (Iran allowed the countries to use it as a transit and refueling point for its forces. Everybody involved took that as a courtesy and played as nicely as possible.) India stopped short of declaring war on the nations, but did not have any issue with saying quite only that if they went into Indian waters or airspace, the forces would be sunk. That didn't bother the Commonwealth and German forces - they had no intention of doing so anyways.

On June 20, Australia arrived on station and quickly began combat patrols, but the Pakistani Navy was loyal to Bhutto and had no problems working with the Australian battle group. But late that evening, India declared war on Pakistan. The pakistani Navy quickly asked the Australians to protect them form Indian units. The Australians denied that, saying that they would not take sides in this war on the morning of June 21. Pakistan took that as a sign that Australia was siding with the Indians.

On the morning of June 23, The Airborne Regiment, mounted in its ten special C-130s, headed out to land at Islamabad to start providing counter terrorist support to Pakistan. The first two were met by Indian Air Force MiG-29s, which demanded the Canadian aircraft turn back and go to Afghanistan. While the Canadians protested this, one of the Indian MiGs loosed two air to air missiles, destroying both aircraft and claiming the lives of 127 Canadian servicemen. The other eight quickly raced into Afghanistan.

Almost at the same time, Australia and her battle group came under attack from both Indian AF fighters and two Pakistani frigates. Australian sub HMAS Collins sank one of the Pakistani frigates and SAMs from the Australian vessels killed five Indian AF fighters, but numerous BrahMos missiles were fired at the fleet. One raced into Australia's hangar and detonated, killing over a hundred RAN personnel and blasting a fifteen-foot wide hole in the carrier's deck, while also destroyign its engines. Year-old Destroyer Hobart and frigates Sydney and Anzac were hit by missiles as well - in Anzac's case, it was lost with all but fourteen of its crew. Australia was towed back by destroyer Brisbane, but Sydney, seriously damaged, suffered a major engine failure on the way home and was forced to be scuttled. Over four hundred RAN personnel lost their lives in the attack, and the USAF scrambled to allow RAN aircraft to refuel form USAF tankers in order to make it to Diego Garcia and safety. Two other RAN Hornets flew to Iran, which gave the Iranians - and the other Commonwealth forces - a clue as to what had happened.

The news hit everyone like a ton of bricks - in both cases, it was their biggest loses since Korea. The morning of June 24 in both nations saw declarations of war on bot parties by Australia and Canada. By the evening, Great Britain and South Africa and followed suit. Germany and the US followed on the morning of June 25.

Warrior was now at war for the first time, and they took it seriously. Enraged at their damaged carrier, the RAN called up everything it had and ordered all of it deployed to support the battle groups of Warrior and Queen Elizabeth II. RAAF F-15s and RAN F/A-18s were soon all fired up and headed that way, and CF CF-184s and CF-187s were deployed to air bases in Northern and Western Australia. The US activated ANZUS and announced that they would support Canada, which meant that CF-184s were soon deployed in force at Diego Garcia - they could hit India from there. Everybody involved demanded India and Pakistan stop their actions, pointing that terrorists had caused it and that Pakistan's national goverment had nothing to do with the June attacks. Warrior stopped for a refuel in Darwin, Australia, on June 27, the same day that Queen Elizabeth II made its fuel stop in Bandar Abbas, Iran. Five USN tankers also came out to support the Commonwealth effort, as did cruise missile submarines Ohio and Michigan.

On July 1, Warrior launched its first wartime strike, from Tomcats roaring off its deck, headed to the Indian Air Force base on the Nicobar Island. That same day, Canadian and British Tomcats and Tornado ADVs roared out of Diego Garcia, aiming for India's Kadamba Naval base. India's Naval station on Madagascar was hammered by missile launchers from South African missile boats that same day. The Malagasy did not object to this - India had started this war, The next day, USS Ohio opened up on the Mazagon Docks in Mumbai with Tomahawk missiles, the first active involvement of the US Navy.

The month-long war would be aimed at both sides. Canada had removed its forces form Iran, not wishing to bring them into a conflict they had little to do with, but that didn't stop Pakistani AF F-16 fighters from attacking Bandar Abbas, supported by Boeing 707 tankers. The tankers were promptly shot down by Iranian F-4 Phantom fighters, and the Pakistani aircraft were forced to land in Iran, removing them from the war. Iran's big F-4 fleet, enlarged after the US removed the parts embargo on Iran in April 2006, did everybody a huge favor by mounting one of the biggest air attacks of the war on July 15, as 60 fighters demolished Pakistan's main navy base at Karachi. On July 17, INS Viraat sailed back to sea after quick repairs, but just two days later HMS Trafalgar, who shot at it but missed (though Trafalgar's torpedoes did sink INS Ranvir and INS Taragiri), and bolted away from Indian Navy ASW attempts. The next day, however, HMCS Lake Huron found Viraat's battle group and dropped Viraat, hitting it with no less than four torpedoes, along with destroyer INS Delhi.

By the end of July, India and Pakistan's ground armies were taking beatings, but in both cases their Navies and Air Forces had been bashed to bits. India's attempts at sinking Warrior and Queen Elizabeth II had been for nought, though India had lost three of its Tu-22M bombers and dozens of fighters. Missiles had struck HMS London and HMCS Iroquois, in both cases casing a handful of deaths and plenty of injuries but not sinking the vessels or stopping them from operating. One of India's Phalcon radar planes had been shot down a CF Tomcat with a pair of Phoenix missiles. Iran's armed forces proved to be tougher than most appreciated, it's F-4 Phantom and MiG-29 fighters proving to be able to manhandle much of the Pakistani AF. Australian F-15s had been based from Iran after the attack on Bandar Abbas and had added to the Pakistani AF's misery. Canada's three nuclear subs all got in on the action, and while Lake Athabaska never sunk any vessels, her two sisters did. After Viraat and Delhi were sunk, the Indian flag passed to INS Mysore, who died from two missiles launched by a Australian F-111 on July 25. On July 26, those same F-111s flew all the way from Diego Garcia to New Delhi to hit the Indian Defense Ministry. Two of the ten aircraft in the war were lost, but the attack killed the Indian Defense Minister and a number of major personnel.

On July 29, a joint operation by the units of all three operations launched Operation Dark Knight, the operation to destroy the nuclear capabilities of both India and Pakistan. The operation is very successful, with all of Pakistan's nuclear capability being destroyed and most of India's, though the attacks, carried out by British Tornado GR.4s and Eurofighters, Canadian Tomcats, Australian Eagles and F-111s and six American B-1B Lancer bombers, are primarily aimed at stopping their abilities to use the bombs.

Realizing that their armed forces are in a brutal stalemate and both nations will simply defeated by the allies if they keep it up, both sue for peace within hours of each other on August 4. The war was over.

Canadian losses amounted to eleven Tomcats, seven Hornets and two Corsairs, along with the two Hercules shot down by the Indian AF. The Australians had taken the most severe losses, with their carrier seriously damaged and two vessels lost, and five F-111s, three F-15 Eagles and fifteen Hornets lost in the war. The British suffered one naval problem when HMS Torbay ran aground off of Diego Garcia, which required it to return to Britain for repairs. Britain's air losses amounted to four Hornets, eight Tornado GR.4 and RN.4 aircraft and two Eurofighters. The US lost two F-15 Eagles defending Diego Garcia, while the Iranians lost five MiG-29s, twelve F-4 Phantoms and two Mirage F1s. The South Africans had one of their expensive JAS 39 Gripen fighters damaged, but other than that they had no losses. German, French, Italian and New Zealander forces were on the way but did not see combat action. Both sides shot off a massive pile of missiles and dropped a lot of smart bombs. Virtually the entire amphibious capacity of four nations had transited to the Indian Ocean, but no landings were ever made by anybody.

The war would turn out to be a big patriotic exercise in Canada. The loss of the Airborne Regiment personnel had enraged the people of Canada, and the war had wide support for virtually everybody - even the Indian and Pakistani communities in Canada. Only one racial attack was recorded, committed by a mob against an Indian-owned clothing store in Brampton, Ontario. The four people who torched the store on July 2 were treated harshly - one of the four was sentenced to fifteen years in jail for the crime. The Canadian newspapers and broadcast media paid lots of attention to the war, though the Sun, as usual, was more fiery about it - with the headline on July 17, after news broke of Viraat's sinking by Lake Huron, was "Surprise! Our guys send India's aircraft carrier to the bottom of the ocean.", mimicking the 1999 picking up of the two Serbians genocide leaders by the Canadian SAS.

[Ming777]

Alas, 2008, the year the S#!t hit the fan. Kinda still kinda to believe nations would be so ready to slice each other's throats. Even IOTL, they get to this point. I'm still guessing the other crisis of OTL is about to fall like a ton of bricks. Well, this sets up alot of things: HMAS Australia just had a severe attack, the Airborne lost alot of men, and the balance of power has shifted in that part of the world. But my, oh my, we lost quite a few fighters, particularly Tom/Super?cats, in this conflict. Any idea of how many fighter did we kill in return. I'm also guessing this was also where the Raptor tasted first blood. Any CVCs from this?

PS: I see something absolutely ironic. HMCS Lake Huron, a submarine based on the British Trafalgar, has just sunk the British Flagship of the Falklands war, paralleling HMS Conqueror's sinking of the General Balgrano

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by TheMann

@Dan1988 - where do you think the next HSR project is? And yes, no frozen toilets.

That is a good sign.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Ming777

Alas, 2008, the year the S#!t hit the fan. Kinda still kinda to believe nations would be so ready to slice each other's throats. Even IOTL, they get to this point. I'm still guessing the other crisis of OTL is about to fall like a ton of bricks. Well, this sets up alot of things: HMAS Australia just had a severe attack, the Airborne lost alot of men, and the balance of power has shifted in that part of the world. But my, oh my, we lost quite a few fighters, particularly Tom/Super?cats, in this conflict. Any idea of how many fighter did we kill in return. I'm also guessing this was also where the Raptor tasted first blood. Any CVCs from this?

PS: I see something absolutely ironic. HMCS Lake Huron, a submarine based on the British Trafalgar, has just sunk the British Flagship of the Falklands war, paralleling HMS Conqueror's sinking of the General Balgrano

Yes, there are kinda a lot of changes in the balance of power, aren't there? If as far as the other OTL crisis you mean the financial one, you are also correct. India and Pakistan have hated each other since the day their respective nations were born, and here the Indians severely over-reacted and assumed that the West's support for Pakistan in the War on Terror meant they'd defend them in war. That was a mistake, of course.

Yes, the Raptor has tasted blood for the first time - two Su-30s, two MiG-29s and a Mirage 2000 shot down by F-22s escorting the Operation Dark Knight forces in, without somebody so much as opening up on it.

Of India's losses, their big (100 aircraft) fleet of Su-30 Flankers and 70-strong MiG-29 fleet did the most damage, except for the attack on HMAS Australia, undertaken with MiG-21s and Jaguar IMs. The Su-30s, which are very good airplanes, accounted for most of the Indian AF's kills, and several more got hit by SAMs or AAA. Twenty losses on the Canadian side were up against almost 40 kills to the Indian AF delivered by CF fighters, plus several more that ate CF SAMs and one that got hit by the Goalkeeper on HMCS Winnipeg. Two of India's Tu-22Ms died from CF Tomcats and their AIM-54 Phoenix missiles, which in this war pretty much always were being used for long-ranged attacks on bigger targets, and so did a number of India's EE Canberras, called back from their 2005 retirement for this conflict. Of those Indian AF aircraft, 50+ of the MiGs and 70+ of the Sukhois were shot down, as were most of the MiG-21, Jaguar and Mirage 2000 fleet India has. Pakistan's F-16 fleet got chewed up by RAF fighters, and the Iranians ate up a lot of their Mirage III and F-7 Skybolt fleets, too. Both sides have seen their air forces lose 60%+ of their combat strength.

Both Navies have been absolutely hammered. Five of Pakistan's six Type 21 frigates are gone, with PNS Shah Jahan being the only survivor becuase it was in dry dock in Karachi, and was badly damaged by the Iranian raid, and Pakistan's three Agosta 90B subs all bit it, one apiece from HMS Torbay, HMAS Collins and HMAS Sheean. Their four Daphne class subs were called up but were not back in service in time to fight. Iranian Kilo class and South African Type 209/1400 subs were in action but didn't kill anything, as were USN nuclear boats. USS Ohio and USS Michigan savaged most of the Indian AF and Indian Navy's bases, and in doing so proving the incredible usefulness of the Ohios rebuilt for cruise missile shooting. India's Kilo and Type 209 sub fleets got cut down, too - CF Turbo Trackers caught two of them snorkeling and dropped torpedoes on them, but most of the kills there went to RN, RAN and CF submarines. HMAS Sheena gets the record for most sub kills at three - INS Sinhuvir, INS Shalki and PNS Hamza. Overall, 30 kills were racked up by sub forces in the July 2008 war, the biggest of course being INS Viraat. The biggest difference in the naval war was the range of the fighters aboard the Canadian and British carriers, plus the forces based at Diego Garcia and in Iran. Indian transport dock INS Jalashwa was destroyed by RAAF F-111s raiding the Mumbai naval base, and the Indians lost five destroyers, eight frigates and a bunch of amphibious vessels and missile boats, one of which (INS Nashak) was destroyed at India's Madagascar base by South African missile boat SAS Shaka when it and three other missile boats, as well as frigate SAS Mendi and supply ship SAS Drakensberg, blasted the Indian Navy facility on Madagascar.

The Airborne is hurting from this one, they'll be back in action fairly soon, but losing that many guys at once hurts. Both India and Pakistan have taken God-awful beatings, especially to their Navies and Air Forces, which have been badly cut up. Pakistan is now in major instability mode, but after this, most of the West truly is not giving a crap, especially as Pakistan's nukes are now effectively out of commission. Australia's damage is such that she will have to be replaced......and that is a clue as to what is to come for the Maritime Command, too...... India can forget about buying Western for its new airplanes, too, but that will be offset by the fact that Iran is now firmly in the Western column, and Canada, Britain and Australia have losses to replace. Australia's F-111 fleet goes out with a big bang (literally - they bombed the Indian Defense Ministry), and that influences what the F-111 is replaced with, and the loss of Sydney and Anzac means that they'll have some new frigates in mind, too. Stay tuned, folks......

I'm not sure about CVCs yet. And yes, I do see the irony in the Flagship of the Falklands War for Britain being sunk by a modified British sub design in the hands of a former British colony. Hermes served England well, it's a shame that the Indians had to really jump the gun, especially since Viraat and the CF had served together before in the not too distant past on the same side.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I find it difficult to believe that India would be QUITE that stupid. But it's well within the bounds of the possible.

The west at war with both sides at once. heh.

[TheMann]

2008 (Part 2)

The war between India, Pakistan and Canada and its allies proved to be both a massive patriotic exercise and proof that Canada could carry well above its weight in world affairs. HMCS Warrior had done awesomely well, its aircraft claiming nearly 30 aircraft kills, and the three-vessel CF sub force had similarly done manifestly quite well, sinking five Indian vessels between them. The war also absolutely ensured that those who had criticized the purchase and costs of operating HMCS Warrior had crow to eat. Warrior returned to Canada, arriving home on August 25 in Vancouver, to a crowd of nearly 30,000, including Prime Minister Tobin and Opposition leader Peter MacKay, cheering its arrival home. The entire way home from Pearl Harbor to Vancouver, Warrior had been escorted home by USS John C. Stennis, whose commanding officer commented "If anybody had ever doubted that the Canucks are some of the toughest fighters around today, they can toss thouse doubts away." US Defense Secretary Wesley Clark answered questions about why no USN carriers or surface ships were involved in the July war by simply saying "They weren't needed, our allies' navies held their ground......incredibly well." Newspaper headlines on the day that Warrior arrived home were estatic. "Our Warrior Returns Home" was the headline of the Toronto Sun, while the Globe and Mail's headline read "Maritime Command Returns from India Victorious". The National Post and Montreal Gazette, in a situation which led to subtle embarassment for both of the papers, both carried the headline "Welcome Home, Sailors". Air Canada, Canadian Airlines and Via Rail returned everybody from the task forces home for free.

The stories of the Navy's work in the Indian Ocean, to nobody surprise, led to a surge in recruitment for the Canadian Forces, with most of the people enlisting wanting to join the Air and Maritime Commands. CBC Journalist Amy England's stories about her time on Warrior during the war would go on to be the basis of several made-for-TV movies and books in the years after 2008, and the Maritime Command's blue uniforms soon became respected wherever the wearer happened to be.

Five Canadian Victoria Crosses were awarded, two of them posthumously to Majors Chris Bentley and Andrea Massikarn, who were the pilots of one of the Airborne Regiment's C-130CS Hercules transport planes who fought hard to avoid Indian AF fighters in June 2008. The remains of Bentley and Massikarn were eventually returned to Canada in September 2008. One other was awarded to Captain Elliott Rogers, the commanding officer of HMCS Lake Huron, for his submarine's sinking of INS Viraat. The other two were awarded to the top-scoring Tomcat crew from Warrior, Lieutenant Commander Darnell Walker and Lieutenant David Krismian, who scored five aerial victories - four fighters and a bomber - and participated in twenty-five attack missions, including Operation Dark Knight, and during Dark Knight their Tomcat was hit by Indian anti-aircraft fire. Despite wing damage, an engine out and losing hydraulic fluid, Walker still brought his badly-damaged Tomcat back to Warrior and safely landed on the deck. Two firsts were achieved here - Massikarn was the first female to awarded the CVC, Walker was the first black Canadian to be awarded the honor.

The International Effects were noticable too, especially as the balance of power dramatically shifted in Southeast Asia after the war. Pakistan and India were both badly beaten, and in both cases their armies after the July 2008 war had difficulty putting down even internal conflicts. On August 24, Pakistani President Benazir Bhutto fled Pakistan for Dubai, ending her four-month leadership of Pakistan. Consumed by civil violence, Pakistan would end up becoming nothing less than a failed state. But after the war, few cared about that or the problems India had. India and Pakistan, in addition to still hating each other, would for many years to come have severe difficulties gaining foreign investment.

The biggest gainer from the July 2008 war was Iran. The IRIAF performed remarkably well, and despite taking losses did not lose their abilities. Having proved absolutely that they are willing to work with the commonwealth, Iran returned to the World Stage in earnest, and began throwing weight around again. Actively changing to help improve their reputation in the West, Iran made a number of changes to its laws, including reducing the persecution against the Baha'i followers and removing some of the more draconian laws. Opposition by many conservative clerics in Iran were handled by President Mousavi's supporters, who were out in number and enthusiastically supported the changes. Iran in November 2008 finalized a deal to have some of 75 remaining F-4 Phantom II fighters upgraded to the Terminator 2020 standard developed by Israel and used by Turkey, and by early 2009 was on the market looking to replace some of its aging fighter fleet. With Iran moderating, one of the changes made quite legitimately was deciding to buy oil in larger quantities from Iran. Canada and several other countries added to this via large investments in Iran and its economy, which when adding to the improvements in the economy that happened in the 2003-2007 timeframe saw Iran's standard of living demonstrably grow - which meant that Mousavi's 2009 re-election was almost a formality.

Australia, who had lost two frigates in the initial Indian attack, faced a more serious problem than that. Their carrier, HMAS Australia, had been seriously damaged by the Indian attack, and RAN personnel commented that while Australia could be fixed, doing so was likely to be counterproductive - repair costs were estimated at AU$3 Billion, a lot of money to fix an aircraft carrier that was approaching 55 years of age. The RAN report proposed decommissioning Australia and replacing it with a new carrier, which they placed the cost at AU $5 Billion for, or doing what Canada had and buying an American supercarrier and modifying it to suit Australia's requirements, which would cost considerably less but cost much more to operate.

With patriotism in Australia running very high, Australia elected to get into the aircraft carrier business, ignoring the problems that had plagued Australian Submarine Corporation since its inception in 1988. Australia went looking for bids for a mid-sized aircraft carrier of roughly 40,000-45,000 tons and capable of carrying 50-55 aircraft. The British Queen Elizabeth II class was too large for the duty, and the Australians for the same reason turned down the American offer of giving them the ex-USS John F. Kennedy for free, with the only costs being whatever Australia needed to make it work with the Australian fleet. Several builders - including BAE Systems, DCNS, General Dynamics, Blohm and Voss and Canada Shipbuilding - proposed designs.

But the Canuck design had an advantage, courtesy of Pretoria.

South African engineers had begun working on pebble-bed nuclear reactor technology in the late 1980s, starting from a design that Germany had all but abandoned after the Chernobyl nuclear accident in June 1986. PBMR, Inc, had spent some $900 million developing the design beyond what the Germans had, and by 2007 had a workable design, producing some 100 MW of electrical power. The PBMR design by its very characteristics was also safer and more durable than older reactor designs. Plans were underway to build such reactors in South Africa, but PBMR had noticed the potential of the surprisingly compact design to power warships. The Australian proposal gave them a chance to test it out.

The Canadian proposal was the largest proposal of the bunch, carrying up to 60 aircraft and weighing just shy of 50,000 tons, while costing an estimated AU $5.8 Billion. The vessel, powered by two of the PBMR reactors, would have the power of the American Nimitz-class vessels with 40,000 less tons to move, and with turbo-electric drive allowing for virtually 100% of power being able to diverted anywhere around the vessel, thus making such systems and electromagnetic catapults and highly-advanced electronics both possible and easy. The vessel was by some margin the most costly of the proposals, but the Australians also knew it would be the most capable, and nuclear power had two advantages. Australia is a major exporter of uranium but has to import oil, which makes nuclear-fueled vessels better in terms of fuel availability - the higher price of oil during 2008 made the economics better, too. The pebble bed design is much less complex than normal reactors, and as such is much easier and cheaper to maintain, in addition to the fact that the vessel would have a virtually unlimited range and almost unlimited electrical power for defensive systems.

The RAN, along with much of the Australian public, took the view of the project "if we're gonna do this, get it right the first time." On March 25, 2009, Australia dug deep and announced that the next HMAS Australia would be the Canada Shipbuilding Design, complete with the pebble-bed nuclear reactors. It would be built at the Australian Shipbuilding Corporation shipyards in Geelong, Victoria, and was hoped would report for service in mid 2013. Australia would, in doing so, almost certainly become only the second country to operate a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, after the Americans.

On the frigate front, the losses of Sydney and Anzac needed to be replaced, particularly with Indonesia's myriad problems and India still raging. An original idea to go with direct replacements for the two vessels was seen as perhaps being counterproductive. Again, their comrades in arms stepped up. Britain, which had taken lessons learned from the Indian Ocean and Falklands Wars into account when designing vessels, offered to bring Australia into the development of its next-generation frigate, the Type 24. Canada also offered the Halifax class, which is similar in capabilities to the British Type 23, to the Australians. Canada also offered to donate to Australia two of its older Ontario-class destroyers as a substitute for the lost vessels. Germany also offered up a new-build version of the MEKO series of vessels, with the RAN proposal being closest to the A-200SAN variant employed by the South African Navy.

The Australians had been impressed with their Anzac class frigates, and decided to go with the design again. The MEKO A-200RAN was based largely on the A-200SAN, but was fitted with the American Mark 45 5" naval gun, as well as with a hull stretch to allow bigger helicopters and a beartrap system, an idea taken from the Canadians. Realizing that a hostile India could be a threat to a large chunk of India's coastline, four such vessels were ordered in December 2008 - HMAS Sydney, Adelaide, Canberra and Broken Hill - to replace the vessels lost in the 2008 war. All would be built at the ASC shipyards in Adelaide, South Australia.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by TheMann

The Canadian proposal was the largest proposal of the bunch, carrying up to 60 aircraft and weighing just shy of 50,000 tons, while costing an estimated AU $5.8 Billion. The vessel, powered by two of the PBMR reactors, would have the power of the American Nimitz-class vessels with 40,000 less tons to move, and with turbo-electric drive allowing for virtually 100% of power being able to diverted anywhere around the vessel, thus making such systems and electromagnetic catapults and highly-advanced electronics both possible and easy.

Oh me, oh my! Aussies have the world's most advanced and fastest carrier? Won't THAT make the US Navy s**t bricks!

Boy that SA company is going to be raking in the dough, after GE (?) licenses the design... Of course the US version will be 'improved' and cost twice as much...

Edit: with that kind of power, can we make it a hydrofoil?

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Oh me, oh my! Aussies have the world's most advanced and fastest carrier? Won't THAT make the US Navy s**t bricks!

Boy that SA company is going to be raking in the dough, after GE (?) licenses the design... Of course the US version will be 'improved' and cost twice as much...

Edit: with that kind of power, can we make it a hydrofoil?

Hydrofoils require a lot of beans just for small ships, for a 50,000-ton carrier you'd need more power than what is practical. There is no need for it. The high power output is to allow the carrier to have whatever electronics it wishes. The US has faced the problems of electrical power output on the Nimitz class. The point of the two reactors is so that NEVER happens on the Aussie rules CVN. PBMR is here effectively the world's leader in such reactor designs, so they'll have lots of money coming in fairly soon, once people realize that PBMRs are superior to virtually any conventional reactor design.

And yes, the USN is gonna s--t bricks when they see this thing. They'll be green with envy.

[Wolfman]

Sweet! OTOH, I guess this means no Australian Tomcats...

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Sweet! OTOH, I guess this means no Australian Tomcats...

No, they went with the F-15, and while this carrier CAN use the Tomcat, by the time the carrier is there it'll probably have been replaced.

[Russell]

You said that the Aussie Carrier would be the first built outside the U.S. to use nuclear propulsion - does that mean that the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle is conventionally powered ITTL as opposed to nuclear as it is in OTL?

Russell

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by TheMann

No, they went with the F-15, and while this carrier CAN use the Tomcat, by the time the carrier is there it'll probably have been replaced.

A navalized F-15? Everything I've read on the subject said the Tomcat was the better naval fighter...

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

A navalized F-15? Everything I've read on the subject said the Tomcat was the better naval fighter...

HMAS Australia could never fit the Tomcat, they ran with the Hornet on Australia. I thought you had meant land-based versions.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Russell

You said that the Aussie Carrier would be the first built outside the U.S. to use nuclear propulsion - does that mean that the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle is conventionally powered ITTL as opposed to nuclear as it is in OTL?

Russell

Yes. Charles de Gaulle has had such technical issues that the French gave up on powering it with nuclear reactors in the mid 1990s. It runs on gas turbines instead.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by TheMann

Hydrofoils require a lot of beans just for small ships, for a 50,000-ton carrier you'd need more power than what is practical. There is no need for it.

Err... Wasn't thinking. Was hoping hydrofoil power might scale nicely, but since the power goes to creating lift (once you're up), then the power requirements should scale linearly with MASS, so NO help for bigger boats. Whereas regular ships are wave limited and wave formation works on length, so bigger boats help. So hydrofoils are LESS competitive the bigger you get. I guess. Just looking at the physics. Darn.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by TheMann

HMAS Australia could never fit the Tomcat, they ran with the Hornet on Australia. I thought you had meant land-based versions.

In that case the Eagles would be Royal Australian Air Force... your calling them RAN was confusing. You might want to go and correct that...

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

In that case the Eagles would be Royal Australian Air Force... your calling them RAN was confusing. You might want to go and correct that...

Done. Thanks again.

[mmmeee0]

Originally Posted by TheMann

The Australians had been impressed with their Anzac class frigates, and decided to go with the design again. The MEKO A-200RAN was based largely on the A-200SAN, but was fitted with the American Mark 45 5" naval gun, as well as with a hull stretch to allow bigger helicopters and a beartrap system, an idea taken from the Canadians. Realizing that a hostile India could be a threat to a large chunk of India's coastline, four such vessels were ordered in December 2008 - HMAS Sydney, Adelaide, Canberra and Broken Hill - to replace the vessels lost in the 2008 war. All would be built at the ASC shipyards in Adelaide, South Australia.

and a beartrap system

Yeah, those sea-bears are a nasty problem in the oceans around Australia.

Dude, I liked 2008, though attacking India after they had suffered terrorist attacks was not cool.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by mmmeee0

Yeah, those sea-bears are a nasty problem in the oceans around Australia.

Dude, I liked 2008, though attacking India after they had suffered terrorist attacks was not cool.

India started it, mmmeee. They shot down a pair of C-130s with CF Airborne Regiment troops and attacked HMAS Australia and its battle group, killing more than four hundred Canadian and Australian soldiers.