The Fates of The Lion & Dragon: TL Prep.

[WorldWarZ]

Having abandoned a suggested 'Arthurian' POD for my TL and return it a time where I would rather stage a tl from, 1000 A.D. onwards.

I am hoping this 2nd attempt at garnering attention and also a lot of help in prep for my TL.

here are some ideas I wisah to achieve.

-A welsh Kingdom that encompasses either modern wales, dumnonia/cornwall, but not UBER Cornwall and the old Brythonic kingdoms in the north OR all of Britain minus Scotland.

- An anglo-saxon kingdom located in the region of East Anglia primarily.

-A Norman state with saxon influences due to a succesful welsh fightback in forcing the Anglo Saxons across the water or into Anglia.

-A succesful Welsh crusader state or one that was there before being conquered.

[WorldWarZ]

Any takers? It would be most appreciated. And as I said I would rathr avoid the Arthurian era as a POD

[Philip]

Originally Posted by WorldWarZ

Having abandoned a suggested 'Arthurian' POD for my TL and return it a time where I would rather stage a tl from, 1000 A.D. onwards.

I think AD 1000 is too late for this. Maybe if you explain a bit more of what you want. And when you want it achieved.

-A welsh Kingdom that encompasses either modern wales, dumnonia/cornwall, but not UBER Cornwall and the old Brythonic kingdoms in the north OR all of Britain minus Scotland.

Your 'and's and 'or's are a bit hard to follow. You want Wales and Dumnonia/Cornwall together, but nothing else?

-A Norman state with saxon influences due to a succesful welsh fightback in forcing the Anglo Saxons across the water or into Anglia.

Does this Norman state occupy most of OTL England?

-A succesful Welsh crusader state or one that was there before being conquered.

In the Eastern Med?

[WorldWarZ]

In response to your questions here is a map of what I would like a viable Cymru/wales nation to look like with a rump Norman and/or Saxon state(s) included.

A POD is hard to decided upon. In my previous thread the 'Arthurian' TL was suggested but that may be too early as I want an established Welsh identity if even fractured into several regions to exist.

Also no, not just Cornwall-Dumnonia, Brittany also and the old welsh kingdoms of the North that include Rheged, Lothian & Strathclyde.

And yes a Crusader state in the Levant established by Crusading Welshmen/Scots/Irish etc.

The Norman state would not include majority OTL England but would occpy a substantial area in the south that is closer to Normandy and Europe

Here is a proposed map of said British Isles.

[Philip]

The map definitely helps, but I am not sure I can come up with a POD to achieve it.

[Wolfpaw]

I really think the best POD for this scenario would be during the Heptarchy, unless that's too circa-Arthurian.

[WorldWarZ]

i am willing to let the POD start earlier than 1000 a.d., possibly during the Heptarchy, but what route can you suggest a viable turn in fortunes for the welsh kingdoms to take and remain dominant?

[Philip]

Had an idea you might be able to work with.

Look up Roderick the Great (sorry, I can't remember his Welsh name). He ruled most of what would become Wales around 850 -- corresponding to the end of the Heptarchy and the beginning of the Danelaw. IIRC, he was killed or driven into exile by the Danes. It should be possible for him to have more success -- perhaps he repels the Danes from his lands. He then grabs a good chunk of what's left of Mercia after the Danes defeat the Anglosaxons.

I think the trick here is to have Roderick do a little better -- not conquer all of England. He could then consolidate. A grandchild or others further down the line could complete the conquest of England/liberation of England from the Danes over the next century and a half. This will keep the TL from becoming a complete Waleswank. If the Normans arrive around this time, you could have the map you wanted at AD 1000.

[WorldWarZ]

Originally Posted by Philip

Had an idea you might be able to work with.

Look up Roderick the Great (sorry, I can't remember his Welsh name). He ruled most of what would become Wales around 850 -- corresponding to the end of the Heptarchy and the beginning of the Danelaw. IIRC, he was killed or driven into exile by the Danes. It should be possible for him to have more success -- perhaps he repels the Danes from his lands. He then grabs a good chunk of what's left of Mercia after the Danes defeat the Anglosaxons.

I think the trick here is to have Roderick do a little better -- not conquer all of England. He could then consolidate. A grandchild or others further down the line could complete the conquest of England/liberation of England from the Danes over the next century and a half. This will keep the TL from becoming a complete Waleswank. If the Normans arrive around this time, you could have the map you wanted at AD 1000.

thank you, I will research this time frame and yes I still want to have the Normans arrive and create the 'England' we know but in a much reduced capacity, basically an english/welsh role reversal of sorts.

[WorldWarZ]

Ive decided to start from a POD where Rhodri Mawr aka Roderick The Great has better successes against the Vikings who attack Anglesey and also he and his son do not die in battle fighting Alfred 'The Great'.

Just need to find some maps and list of monarchs etc for that time

[WorldWarZ]

Ok so Rhodri Mawr aka Rhodri The Greatm King of Gwynedd & The Britons will be my POD.. In OTL he died alongside one of his sons fighting Alfred The Great, instead he will survive and die at a later date, not before he begins to build up a strong power base within Gwynedd and resurrecting the Old Welsh Kingdoms in name.

Having him defeat the Danes coming out of Dublin and succesfully

His first son, Anarawd ap Rhodri , eventual heir and King of Gwynedd will like OTL ally with his brothers who were given domains of their own and fight against the Mercians with renewed success as I intend to have Rhodri die in battle but also have him die alongside Alfred The Great.

Also where in OTL he lost in Anglesey to the Danes I will have him succeed and push them back to Dublin eliminating the need for him to Flee Anglesey to Ireland himself.

Any questions.

I have sevral things I would like to have established for this timeline in mind and am willing to reveal some of them.

[WorldWarZ]

I was thinking that I might start my timeline off with a Welsh Noble or king or prince fighting in the Crusades and then have them basically tell the story that has been passed down from father to son etc about how the Welsh Kingdom was founded and how it has led to a King of Cymru fighting in the Holy Land.

Anyone think this might be a good idea?

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by WorldWarZ

I was thinking that I might start my timeline off with a Welsh Noble or king or prince fighting in the Crusades and then have them basically tell the story that has been passed down from father to son etc about how the Welsh Kingdom was founded and how it has led to a King of Cymru fighting in the Holy Land.

Anyone think this might be a good idea?

Yes definitely, a retrospective can be very good when used in that way. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing Welsh crusaders !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[WorldWarZ]

The TL will start off with the siege of Ascalon in 1153 being besieged by Templars, Hospitallers & Baldwin II's Kingdom of Jerusalem.

AND. My creation and alternate Crusading faction

Archeba chan Seintia Dafydd , Fabsant chan 'r Brythoniaid

Order of Saint David, Patron Saint of The Britons

or for short, Knights Davidian/Farchogion Dafyddan*

*Not a proper translation of 'one of david' as it doesnt translate purely into Welsh, this is done purely for aesthetic reasons.


Basic idea being that the Knights Davidian provide the heaviest blow to the Fatimids and are given free reign by the French as they are not seen as a true fighting faction due to french arrogance, the Templars see them as the weakest of the Crusader Orders and so wait to scavenge and take what the Davidian Order fight for.

Unfortunately for them the Knights Davidian prove too strong and the last decisive battle of the First Crusade is won by Welsh forces who then occupy the city to the annoyance of French forces who cannot attack lest they face excomunication.


The Grand Master of the Knights Davidian will be named Aneiron ab Cymru/Aneiron Ab Llewellyn. Basically he will be the prince of Wales and son of King of Cymru & the Britons.

Any ideas?

[False Dmitri]

Other people will be meaner than me about this, but with a POD in the 9th century, there can be a problem in having events converge too much with OTL down the line. The POD occurs before Normandy was founded (to pick one example), so there's a strong possibility that it will cause Normandy to look very different, or not exist. Same with the Crusades - they would not begin until 250 years after your PoD - so who's to say the entire movement won't be utterly different from what we know?

I think the term is that the Kingdom of Wales seems to be protected by a "butterfly net" that sort of insulates the rest of the world from being affected by it too much. That's more acceptable to some people than others, though I'm not terribly well versed on the theoretical aspects of AH.

[WorldWarZ]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Other people will be meaner than me about this, but with a POD in the 9th century, there can be a problem in having events converge too much with OTL down the line. The POD occurs before Normandy was founded (to pick one example), so there's a strong possibility that it will cause Normandy to look very different, or not exist. Same with the Crusades - they would not begin until 250 years after your PoD - so who's to say the entire movement won't be utterly different from what we know?

I think the term is that the Kingdom of Wales seems to be protected by a "butterfly net" that sort of insulates the rest of the world from being affected by it too much. That's more acceptable to some people than others, though I'm not terribly well versed on the theoretical aspects of AH.

Whatwould you suggest, removing the Norman idea? Allowing and creating a different Saxon nation to be born and a possible different French state too? As to me they were the big changes in that area besides the HRE.

With No Normandy I know there wont be a Norman Sicily etc.

And yes with my POD I know the Crusades wont happen for a quarter of a century later as per OTL.

This is my first timeline and I really want this to work quite well

[False Dmitri]

I guess the main thing is to take it slowly. I'm still quite noobish despite my post count, having really only one very, very unfinished TL. But when I started with it I had grand dreams of Viking-Cahokian creole societies and Norman Crusaders romping around in Kent. Then I realized those ideas missed some important loose ends in the history and didn't adequately take into account the changes that the PoD would cause.

So for this one, I'd start with exploring the effects on the world within Roderick's lifetime, and in the generation afterward. There might well be room, eventually, for the Farchogion Dafyddan (a very cool idea), but they might look a little different from typical Crusaders fighting the Fatimids alongside Baldwin - because it may turn out that because of unforeseen changes, there are no Crusaders, no Fatimids, no Baldwin.

I mean, that's one approach. The faster, less precise method can be fun, but it's less intellectually satisfying, IMO. And on this site it will cause people to behave not-at-all politely.

[WorldWarZ]

I completely agree, I just wnat this TL up and running asap and any help is welcome.

But I agree that accuracy and research is needed and my sources are quite limited to Wikipedia. But waht I know of my POD is that Rhodri/Roderick was a great king and noble and could've become the figure I intend him to be.

And yes obvious butterflies such as no Normans kind of have to occur it seems but I will try and research that area a bit more, although I think forces such as the Fatimids may still occur in this TL along the same lines of OTL

[False Dmitri]

Yes, the Fatimid dynasty dates back to the Prophet's lifetime, so they'd definitely still be around, and they took control of Tunisia in 910 and Egypt in 972... so they're not necessarily going to feel the butterfly effect of events in Wales in the 950s.

There is a school that insists that after a POD, nothing should stay the same as OTL. I'm more of the opinion that the effects should ripple out geographically over the years, and things shouldn't change unless there's an actual reason... but I'm not the expert, either.

[WorldWarZ]

I have decided to have certain POD's remain and remove a lot of my intended. Here are a few suggestions

-Rhodri Mawr lives to a ripe old age and his son inherit his kingdom as per OTL, but the difference bing only two of is childen survive and inherit.

-Alfred the Great remains a prominent and powerful Saxon king, his reforms exist in this TL BUT Alfred loses the ability to reproduce and despite tensions between the Saxon & Welsh Kingdoms, the learned Rhodri in his grand old age & Alfred begin a fruitful relationship which is ended with the death of Rhodri.

-Saxon & Welsh forces are allies against the Viking Kingdom of York which now threatens to surround them from the north england, from Viking held Irish areas & eastern occupied england. throne of Mercia to

-Alfred who has no heirs and with a loathing of those who want his throne on the Saxon side of Britain offers the Saxon territories to the heirs of Rhodri as he feels they carry on the learned approach he lived his life by.

-Mercia upon the death of Alfred descends into chaos as the Welsh claimants begin moving into their lands whilst Saxons fight amongst themselves for control. At this point the vikings are a wounded animal on the verge of death.

-Celtic peoples from Brittany are invited back to the 'homeland'. Many opt to stay whilst many return to fight for their land they lost.

Anyway to make this plausible. Criticisms and comments are welcomed