The Dagda and the three Saints

[EvolvedSaurian]

Well done. You've portrayed the chaos present in Sub-Roman Britain so well that I cannot understand that last section.

Kidding.

[boynamedsue]

Almost from the day the legions left, the exposed coasts of southwestern Britain were prime targets for raiders from the Laigin and Connachta tribes of Ireland. Aware of Britain’s organizational difficulties, they conducted minor raids on rich exposed targets like coastal villas and churches, and more serious lightning attacks on richer prizes such Gloucester. The objectives of these razzias were always the same; gold and slaves.

However, the Laigin quickly realized that fertile land could be taken quite easily in Britain, especially in areas cut off from the rest of the island by mountains, marshes and moors. The kingdom of Laginbhianos (1) was one such, founded in 412, behind the secure walls of Snowdonia, facing the Irish Sea. Irish settlements were also significant in Dometia (2), which was in Irish hands by 415, and at various places in the southwestern peninsula of Britain, where the nuclei of the future kingdom of Eriu were founded around the Tamar and in the Marshes of Glast (3).

In 420, a particularly severe summer of raids on Dumnonia combined with the Pictish sack of Lindum Colonia (4), led Vitalinus to use a tried and tested Roman method for combating barbarians. In exchange for their service as auxiliaries, groups of Jutish, Frankish, Angle, Frisian and Saxon warriors were offered gold and land in Eastern Britannia. They were placed under the command of the Count of The Saxon Shore, Vitalinus’ son, Voretimerus, and took part in several battles against the Picts and Irish. However, it became clear that they were no longer obeying the orders of their commander, and there were several incidences of ransacking villas, which culminated in the sacking of Venta Icenorum (5) by a group of Franks led by Sunnod.

Instead of punishing the uppity Barbarians, Vitalinus negotiated a settlement with Sunod, whereby he recognised Vitalinus’ authority as High King of The Britons in exchange for being named “Magistrati Icenorum”, ruler of the Iceni. The term “High King” was an innovation based on the Germanic concept of kingship, and was viewed with suspicion by other British leaders.

Voretimerus was disgusted by this settlement and began to plot with the factions most opposed to his father, the Latinised aristocracy of the lowland zone, and the powerful Cantii tribe, a group threatened by the Jutish settlement in the southeast. This alliance managed to defeat Vitalinus Voreticernus and his Germanic allies at the battle of London in 431, forcing Vitalinus into exile amongst the Angles north of Camelodunum. At this point, Vitalinus appears to have offered the Germans more land in exchange for more troops from the continent, sealing the deal by marrying the daughter of Inegold the Jute.

This new army, along with Vitalinus’ allies from his home territory in the west, was too strong for the Latin aristocracy. Gaining a few concessions on more autonomy for Londinium, they made peace with the tyrant in 433; leaving his son Voretimerus and his followers to flee to Britannia Minor (6).

Vitalinus now governed a smaller province, stripped of the new Kingdom of Iceningas (OTL Norfolk and parts of Suffolk), The Mark of The Angles (Suffolk up to the hinterland of Colchester) and the Kingdom of the Jutewearas (OTL Kent). There were also developing Germanic settlements around Lindum Colonia, and a small Saxon colony in the Thames valley, around the settlement which would come to be known as Dorecaestre (7).

This uneasy peace continued until 438 when the Saxons of the upper Thames, now effectively the local aristocracy, began to attempt to settle in the territory governed by King Nantleodos of Carcalava (8). Vitalinus sided with the Britons, and ordered the Saxons to respect Carcalava’s boundaries, leading the Saxons to appeal to their kin in continental Europe for help. In 440, an army of eight hundred Saxons landed in the Solent, and were immediately joined by British allies from within the Belgae, traditional enemies of the Atrebates of Carcalava.

Furious at the Saxons, Vitalinus marched to the aid of Nantleodos and the Atrebates with an army of Britons and Germanic allies, led by his father-in-law, Inegold the Jute. When the two armies faced each other somewhere on the road from Carcalava, the Germanic component of his army switched sides. Before Vitalinus was hacked to pieces, the 62-year-old tyrant must have realized he had been the victim of a well planned conspiracy. The cream of the warriors of southern Britain lay dead on the battlefield, the Germans and their allies must have been sure that nothing south of the Trent and east of the Irish Sea could stop them.

The heart of the Island of Britain was at their mercy.


(1) OTL Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula.
(2) OTL Dyfed
(3) Somerset levels, around Glastonbury
(4) Lincoln
(5) Caistor, Norfolk
(6) Britanny
(7) Dorchester on Thames, Oxfordshire
(8) Silchester, Hampshire

[Valdemar II]

Nice update, but it's Germanics not Germans.

[boynamedsue]

From the Black Book of Chester (Cerca 900 AD)

That day was the ruin of Britain. Carcalleva, Carlyr, Calchminido, Gleva, Cargerontio, Durovigo, Catavalaun... all were left defenceless to the Pagans.

And when the treachery of Inegold was complete, and the flower Britain's youth were slain. Inegold had the Tyrant Guortigerno brought to him, so he might mock and defile him.

And when he was before the Jutish King, it was clear he bore a mortal wound, and yet he would not stop laughing, even as the Germans tortured him most foully.

'Why do you laugh so, oh Son-in-law? The Island of Britain has passed to the Germans. My sons shall rule as High King in your palace.'

Guortigerno answered him fearlessly.

'I laugh because I have had a vision, oh father-in-law. I saw the red dragon of my banner fight against the white dragon of yours on Castle Hill in London. And the red dragon was beaten fiercely, and it flew away to the shelter of a church by the river Dee. There it hid, licking its wounds, for 800 years, before it was strong enough to fight again.'

Now, Inegold laughed too.

'Your mind is gone old fool, for the White Dragon is my German people, and the Red Dragon is your British people. And you Christians shall not have the strength to even try to take back your island for 800 years.'

So father-in-law and son-in-law both laughed, and all the Pagans and traitors who stood around the torture laughed too. After a while Guortigerno raised his arm and bade them quiet, and Inegold consented.

'But, dear father-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the White Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'

And Guortigerno had stopped laughing, as had the Germans.

'And this is the dying prophecy of a High King, and the dying curse of a High King.'

And he leapt at Inegold, and was traversed by Inegold's sword. And though he was dying, his jump knocked the German to the ground so Guortigerno was lying on top of him like a man atop his wife.

And Guortigerno spat blood in his father-in-law's face then died, smiling.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Nice update, but it's Germanics not Germans.

I thought about that one.

Given the Latin term "Germanus" existed, to describe anyone of Germanic language, I'm using that word to describe the more diverse Germanic tribes which invaded TTL southern England. The Latins of London use the term "Germani" to describe them, so my usage reflects the exonym given by the Romano-Britons, rather than modern English usage relating to Germany.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

From the Black Book of Chester (Cerca 900 AD)

That day was the ruin of Britain. Carcalleva, Carlyr, Calchminido, Gleva, Cargerontio, Durovigo, Catavalaun... all were left defenceless to the Pagans.

And when the treachery of Inegold was complete, and the flower Britain's youth were slain. Inegold had the Tyrant Guortigerno brought to him, so he might mock and defile him.

And when he was before the Jutish King, it was clear he bore a mortal wound, and yet he would not stop laughing, even as the Germans tortured him most foully.

'Why do you laugh so, oh Son-in-law? The Island of Britain has passed to the Germans. My sons shall rule as High King in your palace.'

Guortigerno answered him fearlessly.

'I laugh because I have had a vision, oh father-in-law. I saw the red dragon of my banner fight against the white dragon of yours on Castle Hill in London. And the red dragon was beaten fiercely, and it flew away to the shelter of a church by the river Dee. There it hid, licking its wounds, for 800 years, before it was strong enough to fight again.'

Now, Inegold laughed too.

'Your mind is gone old fool, for the White Dragon is my German people, and the Red Dragon is your British people. And you Christians shall not have the strength to even try to take back your island for 800 years.'

So father-in-law and son-in-law both laughed, and all the Pagans and traitors who stood around the torture laughed too. After a while Guortigerno raised his arm and bade them quiet, and Inegold consented.

'But, dear son-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the Red Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'

And Guortigerno had stopped laughing, as had the Germans.

'And this is the dying prophecy of a High King, and the dying curse of a High King.'

And he leapt at Inegold, and was traversed by Inegold's sword. And though he was dying, his jump knocked the German to the ground so Guortigerno was lying on top of him like a man atop his wife.

And Guortigerno spat blood in his father-in-law's face then died, smiling.

Interesting the Raven was symbol of the Danes, while the Bull was Icelands.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Interesting the Raven was symbol of the Danes, while the Bull was Icelands.

First one is correct TTL, the second one has had quite a lot of butterfly effect on it...

[TheDarkMessiah]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

'But, dear son-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the Red Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'

Good Last Chapter, but I think you must have put red dragon instead of white dragon somewhere here.. why would the red dragon fight itself?

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by TheDarkServant

Good Last Chapter, but I think you must have put red dragon instead of white dragon somewhere here.. why would the red dragon fight itself?

It...It might do...

Cheers for the heads up .

[TheDarkMessiah]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

It...It might do...

Cheers for the heads up .

AH.com has made me pedantic, i'll put it down to just having had a kid

When I first read this chapter I though the Raven had something to do with the Morrigan But the symbol of the Danes does make sense.

A sorta related question though, is the Raven a symbol of the Danes because of a connection with Odin, do you know, or was it something else.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by TheDarkServant

AH.com has made me pedantic, i'll put it down to just having had a kid

When I first read this chapter I though the Raven had something to do with the Morrigan But the symbol of the Danes does make sense.

A sorta related question though, is the Raven a symbol of the Danes because of a connection with Odin, do you know, or was it something else.

Nothing wrong with the reasoning, just wasn't what I was thinking.

I think the raven was chosen for its association with Odin, and its being cool. Let's face it, no animal is cooler than masive crows in the snow.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

Nothing wrong with the reasoning, just wasn't what I was thinking.

I think the raven was chosen for its association with Odin, and its being cool. Let's face it, no animal is cooler than masive crows in the snow.

The Raven was so much more, for the Jutes being told that the Raven will invade, more and less mean they're shitting themself in fear, the Raven are symbol of Odins favour and death itself, and according to legend no one whom fought under the Raven banner while it flapped would ever lose. While the bull are less important in Germanic mythology, it still a symbol of strength.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

The Raven was so much more, for the Jutes being told that the Raven will invade, more and less mean they're shitting themself in fear, the Raven are symbol of Odins favour and death itself, and according to legend no one whom fought under the Raven banner while it flapped would ever lose. While the bull are less important in Germanic mythology, it still a symbol of strength.

I like that, the Britons get beat, but invent a DREAD curse using pagan symbolism...

We'll see more of the raven prophecy, thanks Val

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

[EvolvedSaurian]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

Almost from the day the legions left, the exposed coasts of southwestern Britain were prime targets for raiders from the Laigin and Connachta tribes of Ireland. Aware of Britain’s organizational difficulties, they conducted minor raids on rich exposed targets like coastal villas and churches, and more serious lightning attacks on richer prizes such Gloucester. The objectives of these razzias were always the same; gold and slaves.

However, the Laigin quickly realized that fertile land could be taken quite easily in Britain, especially in areas cut off from the rest of the island by mountains, marshes and moors. The kingdom of Laginbhianos (1) was one such, founded in 412, behind the secure walls of Snowdonia, facing the Irish Sea. Irish settlements were also significant in Dometia (2), which was in Irish hands by 415, and at various places in the southwestern peninsula of Britain, where the nuclei of the future kingdom of Eriu were founded around the Tamar and in the Marshes of Glast (3).

This is going to be awesome, isn't it?

[King Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

I wonder to what degrees syncreticism would manifest itself amongst both the Saxons and the Norse. Not only will germanic gods be coming into contact with celtic ones, there is the ever present specter of Christianity to the south. Might we see a greatly trimmed north pantheon with Balder taking the role of a christ like figure and Loki as a satanic trickster?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

Unlikely while the Raven was a very important religeous symbol, so was the wolf and horse and lot of other symbols. Interesting while the Saxon used the White Horse and the Danes the Raven, among common religeous symbols the Hammer was a lot more commoned used. Odin was for rulers, while Thor was for the common man.A likely symbol would be a tree or leaf, trees seem to have had especially religeous meaning, of a noose aren't impossible either, it was the common way to make sacrifises to the Hanged God; Odin.

Originally Posted by King Gorilla

I wonder to what degrees syncreticism would manifest itself amongst both the Saxons and the Norse. Not only will germanic gods be coming into contact with celtic ones, there is the ever present specter of Christianity to the south. Might we see a greatly trimmed north pantheon with Balder taking the role of a christ like figure and Loki as a satanic trickster?

AQ important aspect to remember are that Celtic and Nordic mythology has a lot in common even their Gods seem to evolution of the same Indo-European Gods (the Vanas being the exception), the biggest problem are that the main Celtic god Lugn seem among the Germanic to have evolve into Loki, through this may happens so early that Loki hasn't developed his darker aspects.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

AQ important aspect to remember are that Celtic and Nordic mythology has a lot in common even their Gods seem to evolution of the same Indo-European Gods (the Vanas being the exception), the biggest problem are that the main Celtic god Lugn seem among the Germanic to have evolve into Loki, through this may happens so early that Loki hasn't developed his darker aspects.

I rather thought that Lugh/Lugus had more of an analogy with Odin than with Loki. Lugus was a universal benefactor and an inventor of crafts, while Loki was a trickster and double-agent.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

I rather thought that Lugh/Lugus had more of an analogy with Odin than with Loki. Lugus was a universal benefactor and an inventor of crafts, while Loki was a trickster and double-agent.

Loki was oath brother with Odin, and it seem a lot of aspects of Loki has darken with times, original either Vile or Ve (Odins brothers and co creator of mankind and the world) seemed to have been a aspect of him, and the tales seemed to have been turned with times to put the blame on Loki. Likely he has started as some the same God as Lugn and Prometheus both a trickster and humankinds benefactor (he still created the first fishing net). I would be surprise the reason he turned darker was that the early Germanics saw him as the Celts Gods. Tjasse a Sami nature spirit/God seem to have gotten the same treatment.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

If the Irish Druids that pioneer this new incarnation of the Old Faith establish a close-knit hierarchy based on the Christian monastic model, would they employ the Ogham alphabet, or would the resort to the Greek or Latin alphabets? I've had some bother looking up some authoritative sources on Ogham, but some of them are dodgy. I'm personally sceptical that it was invented by Christian missionaries. Why would they create a writing system, only to just end up using Latin lettering anyway?! I rather think it may have been a native Irish development pre-dating Christian influence. But thats just me.