Ethiopian Empire

[tom]

All you know about a TL is that Ethiopia rules the eastern half of Africa and the Arabian peninsula.
What would be most likely to create this state of affairs? What else could you deduce?

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by tom

All you know about a TL is that Ethiopia rules the eastern half of Africa and the Arabian peninsula.
What would be most likely to create this state of affairs? What else could you deduce?

King John could defeat the Egyptians in the 1880s, and then having de facto broken the power of the Ottomans in the area, turn his attention to the Somali sultanates. If he remains strong and grows from his victory then he could prevent the annexation of the coastal lands such as Eritrea, and could also rival eg Italian hegemony over the sultanates

He is somebody I would like to know more about

Grey Wolf

[Norman]

What if the Crusades were more pan-Christian, and included significant Coptic involvement and Byzantine involvement?

I realize that there are some distances involved, but if the Copts becamse more militantly involved at that point could they have moved into Upper Egypt and across the Horn?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I think the 1880's are far too late for a PoD. The Ottomans can't be dislodged from Arabia by a Christian state like Ethiopia, and the British would never allow it - a state that totally controls the routes to India?

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Norman

What if the Crusades were more pan-Christian, and included significant Coptic involvement and Byzantine involvement?

I realize that there are some distances involved, but if the Copts becamse more militantly involved at that point could they have moved into Upper Egypt and across the Horn?

Oh, I wasn't thinking of Arabia, just a Horn of Africa super-state

Grey Wolf

[DuQuense]

510- Axum Conquers Yemen
520- Axum starts repairs on the Great Yemen Dam
535- krakota explodes
540- Krakota Winter ends, Great Dam comes close to Collaspe, but Holds due to repairs. [IOTL it Collaspesed, & Axum evacuated Yemen]
640- Mohammad, Son of a minor [OTL Major] Mercant in the Hawastat, Begins preaching to reform Christianity, The powers that be, chase him out into the desert, He comes up with a Religion for the Bed-i-yon,
650- Mohammhad leads the Bed-i-yon in a attack on Mecca, when he goes on to Medinia, the Axum's Military kick the Bed-i-yon back to the Desert, Mohammhad captured, & exucuted.
750- Eygpt rebells against the Byzantines
800- Persia befeats the Ottaman turks
1100- Coptic Eygpt captures the Palistine, The Pope calls for a Crusade to expell the Heritics .
1120- with Christian, Orthadox, & Coptic Armies, running around North Africa & the Mid East, Axum turns It's sights south.
1150- Axum Fort built Mobassa
1250- Axum Fort Built Mouth Mozambique River
1300- Axum Colony Madagascar
1350- Axum colony Seychelles, Maldives Islands
1450- Portugeses Ships rounding the Horn of Africa discover Christian Empire
extenting from the Red sea to the Mazambique Channell. Controlling 90% of the Indian Trade.

[Constantinople]

Oh, good job.

[Grimm Reaper]

I fear that a colonizing Ethiopia would rapidly be included on the enemies list for Portugal and/or Spain. Now, how about this...

In the mid-16th Century Portugal saved Ethiopia from being overrun by Muslim invaders by providing a contingent of 400 musketeers at the Battle of Wofla in 1542. Imagine the Ethiopian emperor, having nearly been overthrown by the Muslims and then seeing the power of a mere 400 Portuguese coming to the conclusion that his nation will not survive unless it catches up technologically. A progam is organized:

1) Learn to produce muskets and gunpowder for Ethiopia, cannon will follow naturally.

2) Advancement to be encouraged by sending a few dozen scholars to Europe.

3) Access and trade with the outside world to be encouraged by setting up a port which will be deliberately designed to entice the Portuguese. Even if Portugal demands control of the port, as long as trade can be encouraged and perhaps a little naval/mercantile development the emperor will accept the loss of the port/region.

4) Begin expanding into other Christian or non-Muslim areas, such as Kenya or southern Sudan.


By 1600 Ethiopia is self-sufficient in muskets, gunpowder and light artillery, unwittingly preceding the European standardization of artillery and expansion has begun. The first printing press is set up and other areas of knowledge are improving rapidly...

[Hendryk]

I once suggested an AH challenge about a Greater Ethiopia that would either directly control or satellize most of sub-Saharan Africa by the 18th century. If anyone wants to borrow inspiration from that thread, they're welcome to.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Oh great, I'm criticizing a TL from almost 3 years ago.

Originally Posted by DuQuense

640- Mohammad, Son of a minor [OTL Major] Mercant in the Hawastat, Begins preaching to reform Christianity, The powers that be, chase him out into the desert, He comes up with a Religion for the Bed-i-yon,
650- Mohammhad leads the Bed-i-yon in a attack on Mecca, when he goes on to Medinia, the Axum's Military kick the Bed-i-yon back to the Desert, Mohammhad captured, & exucuted.

With the POD before his birth it would be much easier to butterfly him away.

750- Eygpt rebells against the Byzantines

Why?

800- Persia befeats the Ottaman turks

You're kidding me?

1450- Portugeses Ships rounding the Horn of Africa discover Christian Empire
extenting from the Red sea to the Mazambique Channell. Controlling 90% of the Indian Trade.

No Islam means no Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, which means no Portugal. (And no Islam also means a lot of other things.)

[DuQuense]

With the POD before his birth it would be much easier to butterfly him away.

True but Mecca was a Merchant town and Mohammad's family had been Merchants there for generations. Six of one/ half dozen of the other.

Why?

Religious problems, same ones that let Islam capture Egypt so easily, ?Monophyites?

You're kidding me?

Why, I think that a surviving Zoastitian Persia with 150 years after that great mutual destructive battle in the 600's could hold off the Steppe Turks.

No Islam means no Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, which means no Portugal. (And no Islam also means a lot of other things.)

My Bad, --Franco/Spanish Ships then

[Tocomocho]

For a more late scenario, what about this:

- Menelik II isn't a smoker. He has a more healthy life and is a more ambitious person in his late years.

- Under Menelik (who was quite Franco-phile) Ethiopia develops a closer relation with France than OTL, angering Italy.

- Several butterflies throw Italy in the CP side during WWI, but there is an allied victory anyway.

- During the war, Ethiopia conquers big chunks of Eritrea and Italian Somalia with French and British support. In the Treaty of Versailles she is recognize as "honorary white" and recognized in her new frontiers.

- French Somalia goes to Ethiopia during the post-WW2 decolonization (like Eritrea in OTL).

- Somalia (OTL Somaliland & Puntland) goes to war with Ethiopia in the late 60s or early 70s, whishing to liberate and unify the whole Somali peoples. However, it is crushed and occupied by Ethiopian forces.

[At-Bari]

I don't think Spain would excist either...

[AuroraBorealis]

Originally Posted by At-Bari

I don't think Spain would excist either...

Okay so its Gothic instead...an Uber Catalonia then. and perhaps Suevia instead of Portugal. Of course you could also have a remnant Andalusia as well if Vandal North Africa is still destroyed some how.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

True but Mecca was a Merchant town and Mohammad's family had been Merchants there for generations. Six of one/ half dozen of the other.

My beliefs on butterflies are somewhat extreme.

Why, I think that a surviving Zoastitian Persia with 150 years after that great mutual destructive battle in the 600's could hold off the Steppe Turks.

The steppe Turks are not Ottomans. The Ottomans won't and can't come along for another 5 centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osman_I

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by AuroraBorealis

Okay so its Gothic instead...an Uber Catalonia then. and perhaps Suevia instead of Portugal. Of course you could also have a remnant Andalusia as well if Vandal North Africa is still destroyed some how.

Hmmm... no. The Iberian Peninsula was called Hispania since Roman times. If the English language evolves like OTL then there would be a "Spain" and a "Spanish" word anyway, like there is an "Italy" or a "Germany".

Uber Catalonia? You must be kidding. Without the Moors the Spanish March is gone. Although Frank invasions of NE Spain are possible the results of OTL aren't, including the massive repopulation with Occitan peasants who developed the Catalan language.

As for Suevia & Spanish Vandalia, they were destroyed by the Visigoths centuries before the POD.

[Gladi]

Bright day
Spain/Hispania- It would require a linguistic PoD to make someone realize that it is not supplemental prefix, but original form.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

As for Suevia & Spanish Vandalia, they were destroyed by the Visigoths centuries before the POD.

The Suevian areas were very rebellious and had only been recently conquered pre-Islamic Conquest, IIRC.

[Sovereign12]

I put up a post in the map thread of a TL I'm thinking of doing. While its has a larger Ethiopia, its actually about the eastern Orthodox religions having a greater influence than OTL.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...&postcount=923

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by Imajin

The Suevian areas were very rebellious and had only been recently conquered pre-Islamic Conquest, IIRC.

That were the Vascons/Basques. The Sueves were effectively submitted since 586, although the Goths were forced to make some concessions in laws and religion.

Originally Posted by Gladi

Bright day
Spain/Hispania- It would require a linguistic PoD to make someone realize that it is not supplemental prefix, but original form.

I'm not sure if I understand what are you saying, but the Roman-Gothic called already their country "Spania" by 711.