Qing China as constitutional monarchy?

[Tetsu]

Would there be any possible way to do this? An alternate life of Sun Yat-sen or someone similar?

[MerryPrankster]

One of the last Qing Emperors (I think his name was Guangxo or something similar) wanted a constitutional monarchy, but he was overthrown by his aunt, the Dowager Empress, and imprisoned in the Palace until his death. She tries to maintain autocracy until the bitter end and ends up ruling very badly (military money spent on a summer palace instead, leading to China's defeat in the war with Japan), though for a very long time.

POD: He realizes his aunt means trouble and has her killed. Then he rules and reforms in peace.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by tetsu-katana

Would there be any possible way to do this? An alternate life of Sun Yat-sen or someone similar?

I personally designed a POD in 1912 involving the death of Yuan Shikai and his replacement as head of state by Kang Youwei. The Qing dynasty was still overthrown, but instead of being replaced by a republic, a new dynasty is declared, with institutions roughly based on Wilhelmine Germany (consultative bicameral legislative branch). I refer you to my "Superpower Empire: China" TL.
If you really want to keep the Qing dynasty going, then the POD will have to be in the latter decades of the 19th century at the latest. Matt's idea is a good one. You may also make use of a minor historical figure that, in our TL, died before he could make much of a difference: Frederick Townsend Ward (1831-1862), a US-born soldier of fortune who became an officer in the Qing army and helped put down the Taiping rebellion. He was a very talented man and, had he not been mortally wounded at the age of 31, may very well have become an influential advisor to the Empire's reformist faction. I'm considering using him myself, but you may go ahead if he inspires you too. His biography was written by Caleb Carr (The Devil Soldier).

[Grey Wolf]

There are a number of ways you could try this

In AFOE, I used unresolved Anglo-French tensions to have Britain more openly back China after the Sino-French war over Vietnam in the 1880s.

The main problems for China in this period are twofold really :-

1. The forces of conservatism who found a power-base around the Dowager Empress

2. Great power depravations

Just killing the Dowager Empress could certainly help, since the forces of conservatism need a figurehead and a leader in order to prevail. Japan shows what can happen when they find themselves without one.

Great powers increasingly hampered China's chances by appropriating money. The worst came after the various late 1890s and early 1900s, culminating in the Boxer Rebellion, when the powers basically took China's only reliable source of revenue (customs duties) for themselves, to be the source of reparations

A government without money cannot effect many changes, so even after the Dowager Empress's eventual death things did not get better. It can be noted that it is almost certain she arranged for the emperor to die at the same time she did, thus leaving China with an infant heir.

Grey Wolf

[Prunesquallor]

Well, it's not my field, but considering the state of the economy, pressures from outside powers, the recent history of the country, could anything like a constitutional monarchy be founded? Besides (and I'm totally willing to be corrected), wasn't the idea of a constitutional monarchy profoundly un-Chinese? From my limited reading I always got the impression that the Emperor reigned with the sanction of the Heavenly Powers, the Mandate of Heaven,- which could be removed at any instant. Thoughtful people were always aware that the founder of the next dynasty might that very instant be working in a field in a nearby province. Besides, constitutional monarchy always raises the question of "which constitution?" I can imagine a strong ruler using some of the apparatus of a constitutional monarchy to impress foreign observers but as for it having any real effect... Anyone who really tried to follow the rules in that milieu wouldn't have lasted very long.

[Tetsu]

Well, I'm tossing around ideas in my head for some fairly non-traditional powers to emerge in a TL in which Britain, France, the USA, and Russia devastate each other in an early world war during the ACW.

I personally like Matt's idea, so I think I'll use that.

Anyone have any idea about the possible strength of this constitutional monarchy? I'm thinking that they will eventually become allies of Britain, to counter the Russo-American Entente in the TL.

[MerryPrankster]

Tetsu,

Thanks for using my idea. Thing is, I'm not entirely sure if he was in favor of a true constitutional monarchy or just some fairly far-reaching reforms. Still, perhaps his reforms could cause a chain of events that would FORCE him to establish some methods of representative gov't (a long war with Japan that the new bourgeosie have to pay for, for example).