The Papal Theocracy of Italy

[history_fanatic]

Is it at all possible that the Papacy could have united the Italian Pennisula? It can be at any time, I don't really mind... Is it possible that a reversal of the War of the Eight Saints could have yielded a Papal dominated Italy?

It would be best if the outcome lead to an Italy with more or less the same borders... Sicily and Sardinia can be independent even..... its not like Sicily is even that Italiian anyway......

How would Catholicism be affected?

[Ptholemaios]

It is very probable in my opinion. Papal State had few occasions to take over the Italy, but it missed its chance. I think times of Cesare Borgia was one of the best to- if not unite Italy- prepare a ground for it. I can see the Papal Italy, while still having Duce Benito Mussolini as a Prime Minister- don't forget that Mussolini was very pious.

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by King Baldwin of Carthage

It is very probable in my opinion. Papal State had few occasions to take over the Italy, but it missed its chance. I think times of Cesare Borgia was one of the best to- if not unite Italy- prepare a ground for it. I can see the Papal Italy, while still having Duce Benito Mussolini as a Prime Minister- don't forget that Mussolini was very pious.

Who gave you the idea that Mussolini was "very pious"?
Born in Romagna (not a region which produces a lot of pious men), named Benito (from Benito Juarez, of Mexican memory), born and bred a socialist.
Very small chance of getting a pious man out of this scenario

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by LordKalvan

Who gave you the idea that Mussolini was "very pious"?
Born in Romagna (not a region which produces a lot of pious men), named Benito (from Benito Juarez, of Mexican memory), born and bred a socialist.
Very small chance of getting a pious man out of this scenario

*cough*Vatican City*cough*

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

*cough*Vatican City*cough*

Do you think it was out of piousness? It was one of the meanest examples of practicality and real politics: to all practical effects, he bought off the last possible opposition to the regime, the catholic church. From 1929 onward, the fascist labars were always blessed.

[V-J]

Reminds me of the Kaiserreich scenario for HoI II...

[Philip]

Originally Posted by history_fanatic

Is it at all possible that the Papacy could have united the Italian Pennisula? It can be at any time, I don't really mind... Is it possible that a reversal of the War of the Eight Saints could have yielded a Papal dominated Italy?

This is certainly possible, but it will be difficult to bring the republics inline.

How would Catholicism be affected?

A strong Italy controlled by the pope would make the papacy less susceptible to influence by other kings. France, in particular, will not be happy. I could see the Western Schism becoming permanent with possibly more factions.

[Max Sinister]

Cesare Borgia was more busy defeating the pope's uppity vassals, AFAIK.

One Gurps AE 2 world has this: Italy is given to the pope (first the North, Naples comes later) to neutralize the peninsula.

[Chengar Qordath]

Originally Posted by Philip

A strong Italy controlled by the pope would make the papacy less susceptible to influence by other kings. France, in particular, will not be happy. I could see the Western Schism becoming permanent with possibly more factions.

A Papal-controlled Italy is also going to make the Pope far more antagonistic towards the Holy Roman Empire, seeing as the Papacy will have greatly expanded their power and influence by taking Imperial territory. That could lead to all kinds of interesting things, like the Emperor publicly and open supporting whatever analogue to Lutheranism show up.

[The Sicilian]

The title of Pope becomes slowly more secularized, or political power is transfered to something like a prime minister. Theocracies are not exactly the most stable government type.

[Tocomocho]

When southern Italy was taken from the Byzantines and "christianized", it became a theorical feud of the Church, and the Pope must give his approvation before somebody took the throne of Naples. The only time this didn't happen was when the Aragonese conquered the kingdom in the middle 15th century and were excommuniated as a result.

Have, for some reason, that theorical rule be real. Once Naples is a conventional part of the Papal Lands, half of thework is done and you just needs some Borgia equivalent and weak neighbours. They will not take Venice or Savoy, but other places can be opened with the rightful PODs.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

When southern Italy was taken from the Byzantines and "christianized", it became a theorical feud of the Church, and the Pope must give his approvation before somebody took the throne of Naples. The only time this didn't happen was when the Aragonese conquered the kingdom in the middle 15th century and were excommuniated as a result.

Have, for some reason, that theorical rule be real. Once Naples is a conventional part of the Papal Lands, half of thework is done and you just needs some Borgia equivalent and weak neighbours. They will not take Venice or Savoy, but other places can be opened with the rightful PODs.

Have the Sicilian Normans be Papal Vassals? Or perhaps something akin to the Knights of St. John?

Hmm, a Teutonic-Order-ish Naples.