Would Germany Been Better off Just to Of ugraded the PAnzer IV

[Ward]

Would germany Been better off instead of building the PAnther and the Tiger if they just build more of the PZ IV Tank .

[The Dean]

Dead right there, just as well they didn't. The same applies to the Me 262 if they had just built stacks more Fw 190s the air war would have been a lot more difficult.
Conversely the US could have spent much time and effort developing a more effective tank but the Sherman was reliable, plentyfull and could be made in sufficient numbers. The UK aeroplane industry could have busted a gut and put several different jets in the air but was directed to producing sufficient piston engined machines to do the job.

[Jeeves]

Panzer IV's might have been sufficient to defeat Shermans on the Western Front but even late-model Pz IV's are only a match for early T-34's - against the T-34/85 and the KV line you need something more capable. The Panther fills that role and does so at a price that is not that much higher than that of a Pz IV.

The Tiger on the other hand costs about twice as much as the Panther and isn't that much more capable - scrap that program and you'll have the resources to build 50% more Panthers than in OTL.

[esl]

Originally Posted by Jeeves

Panzer IV's might have been sufficient to defeat Shermans on the Western Front but even late-model Pz IV's are only a match for early T-34's - against the T-34/85 and the KV line you need something more capable. The Panther fills that role and does so at a price that is not that much higher than that of a Pz IV.

The Tiger on the other hand costs about twice as much as the Panther and isn't that much more capable - scrap that program and you'll have the resources to build 50% more Panthers than in OTL.

Right but do remember that T-34/85 & KV-85 was built in response to Panther. So does no Panther = no T34/85 or KV-85 etc ?

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by esl

Right but do remember that T-34/85 & KV-85 was built in response to Panther. So does no Panther = no T34/85 or KV-85 etc ?

Wasn't the Panther built to take on the T34? So if no T34, no Panthers etc?

[Larrikin]

Originally Posted by Jeeves

Panzer IV's might have been sufficient to defeat Shermans on the Western Front but even late-model Pz IV's are only a match for early T-34's - against the T-34/85 and the KV line you need something more capable. The Panther fills that role and does so at a price that is not that much higher than that of a Pz IV.

The Tiger on the other hand costs about twice as much as the Panther and isn't that much more capable - scrap that program and you'll have the resources to build 50% more Panthers than in OTL.

At any range that a Pzkw IV could kill and M4 the M4 could kill a Pzkw IV. So your arguement suffers from lack of knowledge. If you go post-WWII, to when late model M4s went head to head with their contemporaries, the T34/85, the M4 quite handily matched up. So there you have a pair of 30ish ton tanks being very evenlymatched up, whereas the Pskw VI was 45 tons, a whole 50% bigger.

The Pzkw IV had prty much reached the end of its development possibilities by the end of 1943, it was only kept in production because the Germans couldn't produce enough of the much larger, and vastly more complicated Pzkw VI.

[Prinz Richard Eugen]

The Pz V was neccessary. Not so the Pz VI. Not only was the VI more costly than the V when in production (50% more Pz V's sounds about right), how more much production was lost developing the Pz VI. I think you could add an additional 50% to the V's production figures. And you add the 88 to the Jagdpather and you have an answer to the JS II without having to use the Pz VI. The Pz IV - even the Jagdpanzer IV = had reached the point that it could not carry a large enough weapon.

[Jeeves]

Originally Posted by Larrikin

At any range that a Pzkw IV could kill and M4 the M4 could kill a Pzkw IV. So your arguement suffers from lack of knowledge. If you go post-WWII, to when late model M4s went head to head with their contemporaries, the T34/85, the M4 quite handily matched up. So there you have a pair of 30ish ton tanks being very evenlymatched up, whereas the Pskw VI was 45 tons, a whole 50% bigger.

The Pzkw IV had prty much reached the end of its development possibilities by the end of 1943, it was only kept in production because the Germans couldn't produce enough of the much larger, and vastly more complicated Pzkw VI.

I never suggested that a Pz IV could defeat a Sherman EASILY - but at least their zones of immunity against the others' weapons were somewhat similar, and that is not the case against T-34/85s and JS-series tanks on the Eastern Front. A slight superiority on the part of the Sherman may have something to do with it's higher weight ... and the Tiger weighed in at 55ts, not merely 45 - as I've said, not a very efficient weapon.

[Larrikin]

Pzkw V = Tiger
Pzkw VI = Panther.

The Western equivalent to the t34/85 were the 17pdr and 76mm armed M4s, not those armed with the M3 75mm.

The Tiger was a heavy breakthrough tank, in the same usage vein as the Soviet KV and IS series, the Panther was a medium tank, and way superior in armour armament to any other medium tank of the war. The first post war tanks to match up to the Panther were the Centurion MkIII and the T54.