Maximum Reconstruction

[Diamond]

Many people have argued that, all things considered, the former Confederate States got off incredibly light.

What do you think it would take to have the North REALLY stick it to the South? I'm talking execution of Confederate leaders, draconian military occupation lasting into the 20th century, a 'police state' mentality, imprisonment and execution of civilians, massive confiscations of property, a MUCH more federalized government, anything else you care to name.

I should say that my ultimate goal here is to arrive at a (sort of) United States that, in the 1920s, is ripe for a communist revolution. Do you think a harsher Reconstruction could eventually sow the seeds for this?

[GBW]

Perhaps, but it definitely wouldn't be a Marxist sort of Communism. If it were to happen, it would have to be a sort of Religious Socialist party with likely slight Nazi-ish overtones that would either want to oppress the blacks again or look for revenge if the Federals have decided to place them in positions of power following this harsher Reconstruction. That could be either reenslavement, unlikely if it's Socialist, violent reprisals but not genocide, more likely, or deportation to the North. This is the only sort of 'Communist' movement that I can see getting any probability of mass support in this alternate South.

[David S Poepoe]

Well you could read Turtledove's short story "Must and Shall" about a vengeful North over the death of Lincoln. Not too realistic but an interesting read.

[Diamond]

Originally Posted by GBW

This is the only sort of 'Communist' movement that I can see getting any probability of mass support in this alternate South.

I mean a nationwide revolution, not just a renewed Civil War; a complete dissatisfaction with the US gov't leading to popular revolt, north & south. That's not to say that the revolution wouldn't begin in the south; it most likely would.

I agree that it would not be 'our' communism; I'm working on a variant that incorporates some uniquely home-grown ideas. My thinking was that during Reconstruction, ALL traces of the southern 'nobility' - plantation owners, etc. are scourged. What is left is an impoverished lower class. Outnumbered by blacks (who the Federal gov't gives social and economic advantage to - to keep them out of the North...)they stew in resentment for decades. While they may not feel especially saddened over the loss of the Southern elite, those elite DO make convenient marytrs, don't they?

In the northern states, several vastly wealthy individuals and families have arisen, taking advantage of the chaos in the south to make their fortunes. The age of the JP Morgans & Rockefellers begins a few decades early, giving these wealthy few time to get seriously entrenched in the federal government and economic structure. When the union movements come along, they are put down even more brutally than in OTL. The working class of the north begin to find common cause with their southern brothers against the government...

Workable?

[Beck Reilly]

Originally Posted by Diamond

What do you think it would take to have the North REALLY stick it to the South?...I should say that my ultimate goal here is to arrive at a (sort of) United States that, in the 1920s, is ripe for a communist revolution. Do you think a harsher Reconstruction could eventually sow the seeds for this?

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

B) It would sow the seeds for another regional conflict, but not a communist revolution. Communist revolutions are the direct result of the oppression of the working class, not the oppression of a particular region.

[Diamond]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

-R.E. headed by a nut: yes, true. Do you believe it's possible that one man (or a group of men) with this mindset could attain and hold power long enough to perpetuate this kind of atmosphere?
-R.E. nation never healing: yes... that's, uh... kind of what I was going for LOL
-R.E. never being a great power: depends on what you mean by 'great power' We'd certainly never be the superpower of OTL, but even a nation with serious internal problems can exert influence on the rest of the planet.

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

B) It would sow the seeds for another regional conflict, but not a communist revolution. Communist revolutions are the direct result of the oppression of the working class, not the oppression of a particular region.

See my previous post.

[GBW]

I suppose it's within the realm of possibility, but it will probably require a 'Great Man', an American Lenin to create an American Communism. I can't think of anybody from OTL offhand, you'd probably need someone who doesn't exist in OTL to be butterflied into existence.

As for how this would happen in the first place, Turtledove's 'Must and Shall' that David mentioned had Lincoln getting killed during a Confederate siege of Washington and Hannibal Hamlin ends up becoming President and initiating largely what you have. The story takes place during the ATL's WW2 in New Orleans.

As for how the 'Revolution' could hit the entirety of the United States... perhaps a large growth of the Religious Socialist movement in the South... a lot of widely reported massacres of the Socialists, perhaps during a time during some particularly bloody suppression of union strikers... then maybe the Religious Socialists and union organizations could form a popular front, coordinate mass protests across the US including the South and when there are bloody suppressions again, the popular front strikes back and coordinates their actions with one another. Whether the general public will join in will depend partly on how the Great War turned out politically and militarily.

[Beck Reilly]

Originally Posted by Diamond

-R.E. headed by a nut: yes, true. Do you believe it's possible that one man (or a group of men) with this mindset could attain and hold power long enough to perpetuate this kind of atmosphere?

No, I don't. That's the problem that I have with Must and Shall. The extremists of the Republican Party would have to hold power for a long time. It's impossible. You'd eventually get a Democrat or a moderate Republican (like Grant) who would restore the civil rights of the Southern people.

The only way to avoid this would be to have the South commit horrible atrocities. Unfortunately, this would require that the personalities of several million people change dramatically...

[Derek Jackson]

It depends on what one means by harsh and what one means by "the south". In OTL former slaves were effectively abandoned by the 1870s.

The trick would have been to destroy the planter class by confiscating their lands and for the North to have blamed that class for the war.

[Grey Wolf]

There was a school of thought that said that the ex-rebel states should be dissolved and reconstituted as new states, wiping out the evil

Grey Wolf

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Walter_Kaufmann

A) The government would only "stick it to the South" in that manner if it was headed by a nut. If they did any of what you propose the nation would never heal. The Civil War would have permanantly devastated the entire country. We would never be a great power.

No, not necessarily. Just put a extreme Radical Republican...say someone like Thaddeus Stevens...instead of Andrew Johnson in the Vice Presidential slot in the 1864 election. In OTL the extreme Radical Republicans wanted to impose a very harsh Reconstruction on the South, which they were prevented from doing primarily by Andrew Johnson (the primary reason they tried to impeach him). So when Lincoln is assasinated in April 1865, the extreme Radical Republicans have complete control with nothing to moderate them.

[Beck Reilly]

Originally Posted by robertp6165

...say someone like Thaddeus Stevens...

Just as I said, the government would have to be headed by a nut...