Fascists vs. Fascists?

[Lycaon pictus]

Has there ever been a TL in which two fascist states went to war with one another?

It seems like something that could happen pretty naturally. We've seen communist states fight each other (the USSR v. China, China v. Vietnam, etc.) in spite of their rhetoric of international brotherhood and solidarity. And fascism doesn't even have that rhetoric. Maybe a war between Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain?

[KACKO]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

Has there ever been a TL in which two fascist states went to war with one another?

It seems like something that could happen pretty naturally. We've seen communist states fight each other (the USSR v. China, China v. Vietnam, etc.) in spite of their rhetoric of international brotherhood and solidarity. And fascism doesn't even have that rhetoric. Maybe a war between Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain?

You don't need a timeline. Hungary attacked Slovakia in march 1939 and Hungary a Romania almost went to warin 1940. In 1944 Slovakia was kinde of eager to participate on occupation of Hungary and recover lost territories.

[d32123]

Not to mention Italy and Germany invading Greece who were fascist in all but name at the time.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by KACKO

Hungary attacked Slovakia… Hungary a Romania almost...

Originally Posted by d32123

Not to mention Italy and Germany invading Greece...

Add to that Germany’s invasion of Austria in the Anschluss.

[BigWillyG]

I can see it. Maybe have no Nazi Germany or Italian neutrality in alt WWII so Fascists survive in Italy and come into conflict with Spain over territory in North Africa or islands in the Med. Could also happen if Fascist government spreads to the Third World like Communism did so that border wars in South America, Asia or Africa are fought between Fascist states rather than Communist ones. An Ogaden War between Fascist Ethiopia and Somalia as opposed to Communist seems like it would work. To an extent it's already happened if you consider Baathist states to be Fascist and look at Syria fighting Iraq in 1991.

[Paul MacQ]

Would have been interesting Italy getting upset about Austria early 1935-36 Italy and Germany going to war for influence there. The Wehrmacht is not the urber force it would become in 1940. Not sure what it would take.

[serbrcq]

Not sure about Spain vs Italy, but it would be very easy to get Arrow Cross Hungary vs Iron Guard Romania, with their massive overlapping territorial claims.

The Nazi-backed coup attempt against Dollfuss in Austria could escalate into a war between Germany and Italy, but Hitler was unlikely to try this before rearmament was complete and while the Stresa Front was intact. With the right PoD it might be possible though.

Edit: Looks like I was semi-ninja'd on both counts, but I'll let this stand.

[d32123]

Originally Posted by serbrcq

Not sure about Spain vs Italy, but it would be very easy to get Arrow Cross Hungary vs Iron Guard Romania, with their massive overlapping territorial claims.

The Nazi-backed coup attempt against Dollfuss in Austria could escalate into a war between Germany and Italy, but Hitler was unlikely to try this before rearmament was complete and while the Stresa Front was intact. With the right PoD it might be possible though.

Edit: Looks like I was semi-ninja'd on both counts, but I'll let this stand.

Has anyone here ever done a Germany vs. Italy war TL?

[Plumber]

Originally Posted by d32123

Has anyone here ever done a Germany vs. Italy war TL?

There are a couple out there. Do you mean exclusively Germany vs. Italy, or Germany vs. Italy and the Entente or something?

[d32123]

Originally Posted by Plumber

There are a couple out there. Do you mean exclusively Germany vs. Italy, or Germany vs. Italy and the Entente or something?

Hitler vs. Mussolini

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Originally Posted by d32123

Hitler vs. Mussolini

That I have always wanted to see.

Last I checked the consensus was something along the lines of:

If it had been in the July Putsch revolving around the assassination of Engelbert Dolfuss and a subsequent (failed) attempt to force an early Anschluss, Mussolini would have trounced the Germans.

[EdT]

Originally Posted by d32123

Has anyone here ever done a Germany vs. Italy war TL?

Take a look at "A Greater Britain" (see sig)- that has a German/Italian conflict over Austria in 1938.

[Cook]

You could probably add to the list the German invasion of Poland in 1939 since there was little to distinguish the Polish regime from its fascist neighbours.

[serbrcq]

Originally Posted by Cook

You could probably add to the list the German invasion of Poland in 1939 since there was little to distinguish the Polish regime from its fascist neighbours.

I've just been reading Norman Davies' Heart of Europe, about Poland, and he takes pains to distinguish the Sanacja regime from fascism. While it's true that it did become more repressive and anti-Semitic after Pilsudski's death, it did allow civil society to operate and did not mobilize the whole country in the way fascism did, and was not rooted in blood-and-soil nationalism. So this probably doesn't count.

How about Peronist Argentina vs Integralist Brazil? Peron wasn't purely fascist either, so it could be seen as a struggle between two different factions of the movement (like Maoism vs Soviet communism).

[ctesiphon]

Originally Posted by Cook

You could probably add to the list the German invasion of Poland in 1939 since there was little to distinguish the Polish regime from its fascist neighbours.

The word "fascism" has a meaning, and it's not "random military junta".

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by EdT

Take a look at "A Greater Britain" (see sig)- that has a German/Italian conflict over Austria in 1938.

What section does the war start in?

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

Has there ever been a TL in which two fascist states went to war with one another?

During WW II, there was a rather nasty covert conflict between Fascist Italy and Fascist Croatia. Italy claimed (and occupied) Dalmatia, which Croatia also claimed.

Italy secretly armed the Serb-monarchist Chetnik guerrillas to fight the Croatian fascist Ustashe.

The Ustashe, for their part, were believed to murder Italian officers travelling through their territory.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Rich Rostrom

During WW II, there was a rather nasty covert conflict between Fascist Italy and Fascist Croatia. Italy claimed (and occupied) Dalmatia, which Croatia also claimed.

Italy secretly armed the Serb-monarchist Chetnik guerrillas to fight the Croatian fascist Ustashe.

The Ustashe, for their part, were believed to murder Italian officers travelling through their territory.

Yep, it allmost came to war when Italian Army wanted to occupy larger part of Croatia than previously agreed, but Croats relented at the last moment...

[MerryPrankster]

Someone here theorized that if Mosley had somehow established a fascist Britain, they would have gone to war with the Nazis anyway. Britain's interests are still Britain's interests and fascist Britain would have no desire for a unified Europe capable of attacking them.

It's like how both Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union craved Constantinople. Geography > ideology.

(As nationalist as fascism is, getting fascists to cooperate is probably fairly difficult. OTL saw the alliance between Hitler and Mussolini, but they had different objectives.)

[Maponus]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Someone here theorized that if Mosley had somehow established a fascist Britain, they would have gone to war with the Nazis anyway. Britain's interests are still Britain's interests and fascist Britain would have no desire for a unified Europe capable of attacking them.

It's like how both Czarist Russia and the Soviet Union craved Constantinople. Geography > ideology.

No chance of that. The whole point of Mosley's foreign policy was a complete rejection of the traditional idea that Britain's best interest lay in maintaining a balance of power in Europe. Mosley primary objective in politics was to prevent a world war and strengthen the Empire through state-socialist economic reforms. Everything else, Labour Party membership, Conservative Party membership, being an Independent, founding the New Party, dressing up in a blackshirt and Jew-baiting was all just means of achieving that goal. Mosley's primary motivation was to save the next generation of people from what his generation went through. Yet people on this broad seem to use Mosley as some kind of blank slate politician who can be put at the head of any British far-right regime (or in some cases far-left) with any number of bizarre policies he'd never have supported (like annexing Ireland or such nonsense). I can only assume they've picked up this habit from Turtledove's lazy and uninspired use of Mosley as a character in TL-191 and elsewhere.

Mosley being drawn into war with Hitler was one of the main things I found hard to swallow in EdT's Greater Britain, along with that unlikely friendship with Bose, though that was made bearable by the fact it was Mussolini who was drawing him in.