Bismarck, Tirpitz, twins and PE making the May 1941 trip

[ivanotter]

We have been around this a bit, but..

Could it be that Scharnhorst was not damanged, able to join Bismarck? together with Gneisenau ? And then chuck in Tipitz and PE for good measure?

Put a more daring admiral in charge of it, allowing him to engage RN on even terms or better.

Now what? Would they have overwhelmed the cruiser shadow in terms of Norfolk and Suffolk?

Gone chasing after PoWales? finding some convoys?

Battling it out with Force H?

Ivan

[Peg Leg Pom]

\With that strong a force the RN will have the entire Home Fleet + force H and the ships assigned to convoy escort. The Convoys will be held in port until the German Battle Squadron is neutralised. Even with that concentration of heavy ships the Germans can't win. Out in the Atlantic it will be hunted down and destroyed though the Home fleet would be badly mauled in the battle.

Reallistically the most useful thing for the German squadron to do would be to break into the Mediterranean to join up with the Italian navy but it's unlikely they could pull it off.

[AdA]

All the german ships vcan do 30 knots. The RN can only be sure of using shipd that can stay with them in a high speed battle. That limits them to KGV, PoW, Hood, Renown, Repulse.
Unless the Germans let themselves be cornered into a situation were they have to figh a superior force, they just have to speed up away from the RN until Nelson and Rodney are far away, then the rebuilt QE are behind, then turn, engage, break again, and repeat the process. The Problem for the Germans is fuel, wich means their best bet is to force an engament in the GIUK gap in such a manner that speed dictates who gets to play, before their tacticalchoices are conditioned by fuel levels.
The "outrun and outrange" concept had been studied by the Italian Navy, and the Cavours and Dorias were rebuilt to be faster than the QE just for that purpouse, and by the IJN, that had, in the Nagato/Mutsu and the Kongos, a battle line that could outrun the USN BB of the 30s.
Chuking in the Tirpitz is not really fair, and should entitle the RN to add DoY to the line up. The PE adds very little to the german force, and is in my view a liabilitty, easi to demage and needing protection. What the KM ships needed, but the KM never add, was an AA escort along the lines of the Didos or the Atlantas.

[HMS Warspite]

This toppic had been debated many times now. German protocole strictly had forbidden the commander in the field to slugg it out with enemy forces, unless in selfdefense. Damage to whatever German vessel was to be prevented at all cost, as there simply were no repairyards in the middle of the Atlantic, forcing a damaged German warship to return to either occupied France, with all the dangers that included, or sail back to Germany and get locked up again.

So no German admiral whoever that may, be would break with these orders, as his head would be chopped of, if he returned to Germany again. Marshall was already demoted for breaking orders in 1940, as he did engage a British heavy force with the only two German battleships then in service. He had been an example for insubordination of the standing orders, so no succesor would try this again.

[AdA]

Originally Posted by HMS Warspite

This toppic had been debated many times now. German protocole strictly had forbidden the commander in the field to slugg it out with enemy forces, unless in selfdefense. Damage to whatever German vessel was to be prevented at all cost, as there simply were no repairyards in the middle of the Atlantic, forcing a damaged German warship to return to either occupied France, with all the dangers that included, or sail back to Germany and get locked up again.

So no German admiral whoever that may, be would break with these orders, as his head would be chopped of, if he returned to Germany again. Marshall was already demoted for breaking orders in 1940, as he did engage a British heavy force with the only two German battleships then in service. He had been an example for insubordination of the standing orders, so no succesor would try this again.

Those orders were altered for Bismarck, and would be altered even more for a bigger force. given their 11'' Guns, and that they were at the time the only german capital ships, those orders made sense for the S&G, not for a 15'' ship. The order for a German force with two 15'' BB and 2 11'' BB would be fight only when the odds are reseonable, wich would allow for ourunning the older RN BB, and engaging the new ones.

[ivanotter]

Yes, sorry. PE was maybe not the best thing to hurl in there after all.

And if the twins had had their upgrade to 15" guns? How big a difference woudl it have made? The slightly less 11" were quite handy anyway.

Ivan

[Super Missile]

Another thing to remember is that if Scharnhorst wasn't damaged, Glorious probably won't be sank as well.