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Old February 20th, 2011, 03:00 AM
Leistungsfähiger Amerikan Leistungsfähiger Amerikan is offline
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WI: Reconstruction done right?

The Alternate Fifteenth Amendment:
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by any party on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

"the United States or by any State" becomes "any party". This would have a massive effect on Reconstruction; IOTL, Federal intervention against groups like the KKK was ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court, since it was done by paramilitary groups. The Democrat controlled Southern states refused to intervene since they knew it would benefit them not to. As a result, blacks lost the right to vote due to race-based violence. If the Supreme Court doesn't shoot down Federal action against paramilitary groups in the South due to the alt-15th Amendment, it's highly likely that the Democrat/Racist White "Redemption" wouldn't have occurred, and blacks would've kept voting rights after Reconstruction. Obviously, this has an enormous effect on America. The Democrats either die, or need to move to a more egalitarian view if they ever want to win an election again. In fact, the USA in general will be less racist because most blacks will be voting. My question is; how will this political shift effect America? The USA in the 1880-1920 era will be going through enormous political changes, and the fact that blacks are voting will enormously effect this change. How early could we see the first black President?
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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:43 AM
David S Poepoe David S Poepoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Leistungsfähiger Amerikan View Post
How early could we see the first black President?
2008. Exactly who is defining 'done right'?
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Old February 20th, 2011, 07:05 AM
Elfwine Elfwine is offline
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Those who consider the defeat of democracy and the rule of law in OTL by the "redeemers" to be a bad thing, apparently.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:49 PM
Leistungsfähiger Amerikan Leistungsfähiger Amerikan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David S Poepoe View Post
2008. Exactly who is defining 'done right'?
The POD is a change in the 15th amendment. I'm asking the effects.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 07:04 PM
Mikestone8 Mikestone8 is online now
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How would the words of the Amendment make any difference without the political will to enforce it?

By 1876 the US Army was down to 27,000 men, of whom only about 3,000 were stationed in the South. That wasn't enough to enforce anything, and nobody wanted to increase military appropriations in peacetime. As the First Lady asked one of her husband's critics "What was Mr Hayes to do? He had no army."

Until people cared enough to start enforcing the Amendments, they were, and would remain, so much waste paper.

Last edited by Mikestone8; February 20th, 2011 at 10:09 PM..
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Old February 20th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Leistungsfähiger Amerikan Leistungsfähiger Amerikan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikestone8 View Post
How would the words of the Amendment make any difference without the political will to enforce it?

By 1876 the US Army was down to 27,000 men, of whom only about 3,000 were stationed in the South. That wasn't enough to enforce anything, and nobody wanted to increase military appropriations in peacetime. As the First Lady asked one of her husband's critics "What was Mr Hayes to do? He had no army."

Until people cared enough to start enforcing the Amendments, they were, and would remain, so much waste paper.
By 1876, it was a moot issue---"Redemption" had taken hold and blacks were quickly losing the right to vote by paramiltiary induced violence. In the years between 1865 and 1876, the Federal government had the political will to crush these groups and tried to. It was ruled unconstitutional, which is why they stopped.
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Old February 21st, 2011, 06:00 PM
Mikestone8 Mikestone8 is online now
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Originally Posted by Leistungsfähiger Amerikan View Post
By 1876, it was a moot issue---"Redemption" had taken hold and blacks were quickly losing the right to vote by paramiltiary induced violence. In the years between 1865 and 1876, the Federal government had the political will to crush these groups and tried to. It was ruled unconstitutional, which is why they stopped.

Could you be a bit more specific? Which particular Supreme Court rulings had you in mind?

I know the Supremes threw out the 1875 Civil Rights Act, but iirc not until 1883, by which time Reconstruction was already dead. Indeed, even had the Act been upheld, by the time of its passage Reconstruction was already on its last legs, with only four states yet to be redeemed.

In any case, how could any ruling by the SCOTUS have prevented the steady shrinkage of the US Army, which was due to the usual unpopularity of military appropriations in peacetime?
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 08:31 AM
Glass Onion Glass Onion is offline
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Originally Posted by David S Poepoe View Post
2008. Exactly who is defining 'done right'?
I think that points somewhat arguable. I'm not saying you could have seen an African American President in the 1930's or anything like that, just that, theoretically we could have seen such a President prior to 2008. Not much prior in the grand scheme of things, because Conversely it's perhaps conceivable that we wouldn't have an African American President until well into the 21st century if at all. My guess is, if you were to manipulate events properly, the earliest time you could see such a President would be in the 1990's rather than 2008. Again, not much difference and I realize I'm arguing semantics here. And that's an argument for another thread. In the case here, I agree with Mikestone's argument here.
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