AH challenge: KKK as strong in North as in South

[Melvin Loh]

How could the KKK have grown into as strong popular political movement north as well as south of the Mason-Dixon line ? During the 1920s the reborn post-WWI Klan, at the height of its power, numbered supporters as far north as Maine and Oregon, with large nos. of supporters in the midwest and Hiram Stephens of Indiana as Grand Dragon, but this huge position of influence was of course undermined by the scandals which plagued the Klan's leadership at the time. However, into the 1930s and afterwards there remained a white supremacist presence in certain parts of the north, as with Michigan's Black Legion who murdered Malcolm Little's father the Revd Earl Little near Detroit at that time and thereby influenced the young man who later became Malcolm X. WI the KKK somehow remained strong in the northern states, and cont'd to exert a substantial political influence ? Could there have been a greater presence of proto-white supremacist militias thruout the north with the KKK as their underpinning influence ?

[Coriolanus]

I think the KKK could've remained strong in the North if some sort of fascist were elected in the 1930s instead of Roosevelt. Or, perhaps WWII goes on longer, and the horrible race riots of the time get even worse.

If this were to happen....very scary for Northern politics. MLK got a bad reception in Chicago in 1966; in a TL where white supremacy is stronger in the North civil rights inroads into the North could be even bloodier.

[Aussey]

It is kind of, sort-of-more, stronger in certain areas in the North than in the South....

[Stalin]

Originally Posted by Coriolanus

I think the KKK could've remained strong in the North if some sort of fascist were elected in the 1930s instead of Roosevelt.

By the 1930's, the Klan had already seen multiple scandals. It was also already experiencing financial difficulties, which culminated in the actual national organization collapsing (since then we've just seen different Klans terrorize the South and other areas). A fascist regime, which is unlikely enough as it is in America without much earlier PODS, is unlikely to change any of that. In any case, given the Klan's highly anti-Union stance, the Depression probably hurt it's popularity amongst the public.

However, If D. C. Stephenson doesn't murder Madge Oberholtzer in '25, then you could seriously see the national organization continuing to have millions of members -- and a continued massive influence in both the Republican Party and Southern Democratic Party. He might even get a puppet into the Whitehouse.

[Coriolanus]

Originally Posted by POTUS P.Diffin

By the 1930's, the Klan had already seen multiple scandals. It was also already experiencing financial difficulties, which culminated in the actual national organization collapsing (since then we've just seen different Klans terrorize the South and other areas). A fascist regime, which is unlikely enough as it is in America without much earlier PODS, is unlikely to change any of that. In any case, given the Klan's highly anti-Union stance, the Depression probably hurt it's popularity amongst the public.

However, If D. C. Stephenson doesn't murder Madge Oberholtzer in '25, then you could seriously see the national organization continuing to have millions of members -- and a continued massive influence in both the Republican Party and Southern Democratic Party. He might even get a puppet into the Whitehouse.

Hmmmm....forgot about that...

BTW, I know a fascist USA is unlikely, but as you said a 1920s POD may help bring about this.

[Wendell]

Maybe a healthier, more power-craving, longer-living Woodrow Wilson could do this?

[Superdude]

There is a book out there about if the Klan takes over the USA during the Depression and is an ally of Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union.

[Othniel]

Originally Posted by Melvin Loh

How could the KKK have grown into as strong popular political movement north as well as south of the Mason-Dixon line ? During the 1920s the reborn post-WWI Klan, at the height of its power, numbered supporters as far north as Maine and Oregon, with large nos. of supporters in the midwest and Hiram Stephens of Indiana as Grand Dragon, but this huge position of influence was of course undermined by the scandals which plagued the Klan's leadership at the time. However, into the 1930s and afterwards there remained a white supremacist presence in certain parts of the north, as with Michigan's Black Legion who murdered Malcolm Little's father the Revd Earl Little near Detroit at that time and thereby influenced the young man who later became Malcolm X. WI the KKK somehow remained strong in the northern states, and cont'd to exert a substantial political influence ? Could there have been a greater presence of proto-white supremacist militias thruout the north with the KKK as their underpinning influence ?

What if the KKK had an antiEuropean stance, much like the repression of the Irish? The KKK could win points as a native base to haze Japs, Italians and Germans coming into the US during the 1880s and disrupt communities across the midwest...

[Stalin]

Coriolanus: The Klan wasn't really fascist when it was starting out though. It was essentially isolationist and anti-government intervention in the economy generally. This by default makes it non-Fascist, since it lacks the imperialist and corporatist elements of European Fascism.

Anyway, besides avoiding the "Love Potion" scandal, one obvious way to get the Klan to remain powerful is to have the Red Scare intensify. Fear over "radical foreigners" would allow the Klan to increase in the North East and other areas.

Also, as I stated earlier avoiding the Depression and New Deal would help. Without a major economic crisis, "New" Liberalism and Socialism would be much less popular and the division between Urban and Rural areas would increase (the Klan has always relied on anti-Urban sentiment and hostility towards "Liberal Do-Gooders").

[Farnham]

Like Potus said, the Klan adopted an anti-labor union stance in the 1920s and '30s. Considering the racism of the time, expanding the Klan's power in the North is plausible, but bashing unions isn't the way to go. If the Klan was pro-union, and became a blue-collar, economically left/socially conservative outfit it could have made itself a niche in northern industrial cities possibly. But brawling with unions it doomed itself to being a reactionary, protest-against-anything movement.

[hammo1j]

Watched this thing on the History Channel about the Klan and as previous posters mention the membership dropped from about 5million (1919) to about 5,000 (1980).

Seem to recall that the Grandmaster of the Lodge (or whatever his name) did what a lot of businesses were doing at the time and called in Management Consultants.

Their conclusions:

1. People perceive you as racist limiting your appeal to the population as a whole

2. You are seen as old fashioned and out of touch.

3. You no longer go in for all those big outdoor rallies with fireside stories for the kids and hiking.

And it worked. I hear they have increased their membership by 50% to 7,500 now.

In all seriousness (as the management consultants pointed out - did not make that bit up), probably their best way forward would have been to copy Hitler Youth tactics and tried to appeal (brainwash) the young with the same anti semitic hogwash targeting African Americans, while offering an appealing series of Boy Scout type activities.

[Farnham]

Originally Posted by hammo1j

Watched this thing on the History Channel about the Klan and as previous posters mention the membership dropped from about 5million (1919) to about 5,000 (1980).

Seem to recall that the Grandmaster of the Lodge (or whatever his name) did what a lot of businesses were doing at the time and called in Management Consultants.

Their conclusions:

1. People perceive you as racist limiting your appeal to the population as a whole

2. You are seen as old fashioned and out of touch.

3. You no longer go in for all those big outdoor rallies with fireside stories for the kids and hiking.

And it worked. I hear they have increased their membership by 50% to 7,500 now.

In all seriousness (as the management consultants pointed out - did not make that bit up), probably their best way forward would have been to copy Hitler Youth tactics and tried to appeal (brainwash) the young with the same anti semitic hogwash targeting African Americans, while offering an appealing series of Boy Scout type activities.

Sounds alot like what David Duke did; "We're not anti-black! Just pro-white!"