AH Challenge: Save the H.R.E!

[Basileus Giorgios]

As it says on the tin. Go!

[Philip]

In what form?

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Philip

In what form?

In the form of a German state with an Emperor that pretends to be the Roman Empire. Otherwise, let your imagination loose.

[Philip]

There is no Miracle of Brandenburg: Elizabeth of Russia does not die in 1762. Frederick II abdicates and then commits suicide as Russian troops capture Berlin. Prussia is dismantled with East Prussia falling to Russia and Silesia returning to the Habsburgs. The UK effectively abandons Hanover. Napoleon (or at least his rise to power) is averted thanks to a flock of vampiric butterflies.

The French revolution goes roughly as OTL, but is not effectively exported. The 19th Century is rough, but the Empire is able to tie its history to growing German nationalism. More radical democratic and socialist movements are marginalized. Imperial democratic reforms leave the Emperor even more impotent but a beloved fixture of the German nation.

I think this should allow the HREGN to survive. It will still face challenges in the 20th Century, but should be able to reach the present day as a constitutional monarchy.

[Tocomocho]

As a reality, Catholic victory in the 30 Years War.

In name only, anything without Napoleon.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If the British managed to transition to a federal empire (13 colonies becoming ?6? dominions), then once Napoleon is defeated, a British guaranteed German federation with the British monarch being Emperor could happen, and be CALLED the HRE. (Hannover being less of a threat to the minor states than either Prussia or Austria)

[Carinthium]

Originally Posted by Philip

There is no Miracle of Brandenburg: Elizabeth of Russia does not die in 1762. Frederick II abdicates and then commits suicide as Russian troops capture Berlin. Prussia is dismantled with East Prussia falling to Russia and Silesia returning to the Habsburgs. The UK effectively abandons Hanover. Napoleon (or at least his rise to power) is averted thanks to a flock of vampiric butterflies.

The French revolution goes roughly as OTL, but is not effectively exported. The 19th Century is rough, but the Empire is able to tie its history to growing German nationalism. More radical democratic and socialist movements are marginalized. Imperial democratic reforms leave the Emperor even more impotent but a beloved fixture of the German nation.

I think this should allow the HREGN to survive. It will still face challenges in the 20th Century, but should be able to reach the present day as a constitutional monarchy.

If the French Revolution fails to export itself, how does German nationalism come about?

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

If the British managed to transition to a federal empire (13 colonies becoming ?6? dominions), then once Napoleon is defeated, a British guaranteed German federation with the British monarch being Emperor could happen, and be CALLED the HRE. (Hannover being less of a threat to the minor states than either Prussia or Austria)

1- Why does this require a transition to a federal empire?
2- What could make the British persue this goal? It was incompatible with their tradition balance of power policies.

[Susano]

The French Revolution didnte xport itself. Saying that Frenchrevolutionary soldiers bloodiyl and brutally occupied large parts of Europe would be more correct. Of course the Revolution could still go in a way that allows the HHRE to survive, but its not about "exporting" the revolution or not.

And yes, Reformation would be the last good time for the Empire to pull together. Either a protestant national church uniting the Empire, or a Catholic Victory in the 30 Years War.

And yes, no French Revolution, or one stopping at the Rhine would work, too. Though of course, post-mediation HRE wouldnt be the same as the wonderfully illogical and geographically baffling HRE we know , so maybe the first is better. God knows what would happen then... it as a time where France, Prussia and Austria all ha drather non-expansionist leaders, after all, so we couldnt even predict some wars shaking things up...

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Carinthium

1- Why does this require a transition to a federal empire?
2- What could make the British persue this goal? It was incompatible with their tradition balance of power policies.

1) Up til then the existing meme of empire was 'center rules everyone'. If the Brits had managed to put together a 'we've got a system where the peripheral entities are a constructive part of the empire and are happy with it', then the Germans are more likely to want to follow that example. It would be 'safer'. OTL, many smaller German states recognized that Prussia would be overwhelmingly dominant, and were very reluctant to join.
If Britain remains the unitary empire she was and remained OTL, she would not serve as an inspiration/a nucleus for a German empire

2) Again, with a 'federal'ish empire, Hanover is likely to be more caught up. OTL we had big center, several minor peripheral bits of little consequence (the various colonies, Ireland, to some extent Hanover). Hanover and Britain might feel more fraternal, less like step-children under one 'father'. Hanover, with the friendly support of Britain, would be a less threatening nucleus for the formation of a German nation than either Prussia or Austria (the two OTL candidates), while being large enough and strong enough to be a possible nucleus.
Balance on the continent is fine if you can't have direct influence. Being the Emperor of the HRE and ruler of one of the major sub components would give them that influence, and could easily have them change their minds.