The Everlasting Reich

In 1940 Halifax decides to run for prime minister instead of giving the post to the much less popular Churchill and he succeeds in that. The invasion of France proceeds on schedule but Halifax decides not to evacuate Dunkirk saying that the Luftwaffe will easily sink the rescue fleet. Hitler sees this as a sign of weakness and directly after the creation of Vichy the Luftwaffe launches an offensive against Britain. With the RAF suffering defeat after defeat and with Italy in the war (nobody expected the huge Italian army and fleet to be so weak) the German-friend Halifax sues for peace. Egypt, Sudan, Cyprus, Malta and the territories at the Horn of Africa will go to Italy. Suez, the Channel Islands and Gibraltar will go to Germany. So will Tanzania and some Namibian ports (SA keeps the rest) and Cameroon. British forces will withdraw from the Mid east and Syria (+Lebanon), Jordania (+Palestine), Iraq (+Kuwait) and Saudi Arabia (entire Arabic peninsula) will all come "under the protection of Germany." 70% of the British fleet will be given to the Germans instead of reparations.

Hitler now starts to build his Grand Alliance composing of all European states except Sweden (Switzerland is annexed), which is allowed to be independence since their-easy-to-destroy mines is vital to the Germans. In 22 may 1941 the Germans invade the Soviet Union; this time the invading force is almost 2.5 million men stronger (Italian troops, Spanish troops, Yugoslavian troops, German troops otherwise used for occupational duties in France and more troops from the other minor axis countries which historically send very few men in 41). With Britain out of the war the surprise element is lost, but the Soviet army still use the same stupid static defence lines making them easy to encircle and the Soviet people in general knows nothing about the threat since Stalin, still believing that he can avoid war by diplomacy, does not want to show any weakness at all to the people.

By the end of 1943 the Axis has reached the Astrakhan-Archangelsk line and what remains of the Soviet Union has collapsed in to Lebanon-style anarchy. The Germans will use now use the Luftwaffe to wipe out all major cities and industrial centres in the lands west of the Urals and in western Siberia.

(After the victory in the east Sweden is finally occupied and annexed)

What happens now?

Note: try to discuss what happens after the German victory, not how plausible this scenario is.
 
(1) Bigger Holocaust; to avoid getting nightmares I won't go into any more details. Thank God it didn't happen.
(2) Germans occupy the oil area in Saudi. I can imagine what might likely happen if the Germans had to go into Mecca or if Arabs tried any sort of terrorism.
(3) Peenemunde becomes Europe's Cape Canaveral.
(4) Eventually, after several or 15 or so Fuhrers have come and gone, Nazi rule may slacken until the empire breaks up from within like the USSR did.
 
AA:
How long do you think the Reich might last? The old USSR spanned less than a human lifespan. Would the "everlasting" Reich last a similarly brief time?
Anyone else want to field the lifespan of Peter's version of the Reich?
 
The Soviet Union fell because of political reasons, would the same thing happen to Germany with their more capitalist economy?
 
Peter said:
The Soviet Union fell because of political reasons, would the same thing happen to Germany with their more capitalist economy?

In the long run I don't think the collapse could have been stopped. The third Reich's leadership were exceptionally ruthless, brutal, aggressive and greedy, but they were hardly efficient and dedicated. They had no coherent policy, no procedures, no unified vision, and no appreciable ability to delegate. I don't know how long the Third Reich could have gone on on the strength of plundering Europe's captive economies, but it would have come down in the end. Think of it: by 1933, Germany had weathered the great crisis, her labour markets were up, production was rising, and the population could look forward to increasing living standards (barring a KPD election victory). By 1938, the country was effectively broke, foreign reserves gone, a crippling debt burden amassed, employment artificially supported, real incomes down from the 1920s (and barely up from the depression), nutritional standards down, medical care declining, and the people were becoming disillusioned. Without the war, Nazi Germany would likely have disintegrated in the course of the 1940s. Even with a victorious war I'd expect the country to fall apart in the 70s or 80s over its inability to pay pensions, if not earlier for similarly mundane reasons. Keep in mind that without the clean slate of defeat, Germany will have to serve a huge burden of foreign debt with the United States, various South American countries, Switzerland, Sweden, and (technically) many of its clients. Imagine history books outlining the German Default Crisis of the 1950s...

Not to mention the awful scenes that would follow Hitler's death or retirement.
 
Why would Germany pay the debts? Why not just say "Screw you, we are just taking back what what we lost due to Versailles!"
I'm pretty sure the clients would write the debt off since they are, well, clients. Sweden and Switzerland wouldn't exist anymore, same thing with many other nations. Many other countries would probably write of the debt just to keep good relations with Germany.
 
"German-friend Halifax"? Lord Halifax was not a Nazi sympathizer and he probably wouldn't have sought peace at the dismemberment of the British Empire. Halifax may serve briefly as prime minister before falling to a vote of no confidence.
 
If I've understood itcorrectly Halifax belonged to the peace camp and with UK facinf defeat (in his eyes and many others) I could see him make peace.
 
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWhalifaxL.htm

In 1936 Halifax visited Nazi Germany for the first time. Halifax's friend, Henry (Chips) Channon, reported: "He told me he liked all the Nazi leaders, even Goebbels, and he was much impressed, interested and amused by the visit. He thinks the regime absolutely fantastic."

In November, 1937, Neville Chamberlain, who had replaced Stanley Baldwin as prime minister, sent Lord Halifax to meet Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Hermann Goering in Germany. In his diary, Lord Halifax records how he told Hitler: "Although there was much in the Nazi system that profoundly offended British opinion, I was not blind to what he (Hitler) had done for Germany, and to the achievement from his point of view of keeping Communism out of his country." This was a reference to the fact that Hitler had banned the Communist Party (KPD) in Germany and placed its leaders in Concentration Camps.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Halifax would've made peace had hitler withdrawn from france and the benelux.

Hitler would not have withdrawn. Therefore, no peace.
 
If Halifax had agreed to hand over 70% of the Royal Navy to Nazi Germany I've no doubt Britain would have expierienced it's first military coup.
 
One short story I once read was 'Drang Nach Osten' or Drive to the West.

In this the USSR is indeed hit harder following England's signing a treaty in 1940(specifics not given) and responds by joining forces with Mao's Red Chinese. The story ends with the few survivors of a German unit surrendering and the impression is that the Russian/Chinese partnership may prove unstoppable before the English Channel.
 
But what, about, the Japanese? They're the key, if they become leery of the Reich (which, I would), the US would NOT enter the war due to pearl harbor. And that's bad, no war for US=no A-bomb=no victory.

If they DO, then US=A-bomb=Victory.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Gamingboy said:
But what, about, the Japanese? They're the key, if they become leery of the Reich (which, I would), the US would NOT enter the war due to pearl harbor. And that's bad, no war for US=no A-bomb=no victory.

If they DO, then US=A-bomb=Victory.

..uhm..maybe yes, maybe no

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Med/Med.html

seems to indicate that there was a good deal of support for A bomb development before the war and extensive German victory in Europe would certainly not have made it any less.
As I understand it, German bomb development was along lines that probably would not have worked, but this is very controversial.

Also in re the Holocaust (and please DON'T flame me about this, I'm not trying to say it didn't happen) there is some indication that its worst aspects came about after the war started to go badly for the Germans. Perhaps in some insane way Hitler thought it could help him win. The plan which the Nazis gave to the world involved real "resettlement" of the Jews but largely foundered on lack of a place to send them. One candidate was Madagascar but it was never pursued. If the British gave Germany some other African Colony...
 
Landshark said:
If Halifax had agreed to hand over 70% of the Royal Navy to Nazi Germany I've no doubt Britain would have expierienced it's first military coup.

You mean like the one Germany suffered after surrendering her fleet, her empire, parts of the fatherland and her national sovereignity while still standing deep in France and with a total victory in the East?
 
Peter said:
You mean like the one Germany suffered after surrendering her fleet, her empire, parts of the fatherland and her national sovereignity while still standing deep in France and with a total victory in the East?

Ah, but you appear to have forgotten that the German nation was being starved to death by the British blockade. All the German's got out of their fleet in the end was a hotbed for Socialists and others when they raised the red flag.

Anyway, Halifax may conclude an armistice with the Germans, but not at the cost of the Royal Navy or any overseas territories. He would probably take the oppurtunity to strengthen Britain's armed forces for the eventual conflict ahead. With Germany dominating the continent Britain faces the possibility of becoming a satellite power.
 
Peter said:
Why would Germany pay the debts? Why not just say "Screw you, we are just taking back what what we lost due to Versailles!"
I'm pretty sure the clients would write the debt off since they are, well, clients. Sweden and Switzerland wouldn't exist anymore, same thing with many other nations. Many other countries would probably write of the debt just to keep good relations with Germany.

That's exactly the thing. I don't think Germany would pay the debts, and that would send nasty shockwaves through a recovering world economy. I'm pretty sure Vichy France would 'happily' accept repayment in occupation Francs, as would and other client states, but Italy is already a question (how badly can Hitler afford to stiff Musso?). As to Sweden and Switzerland,. I think they'd continue to exist. No need to invade them. In fact, Switzerland was a vital capital nexus for Germany - I doubt they could have afforded an invasion. That means we already have two countries (or one, if Sweden is taken) that wants payment. South America and the US, too, are notas easy to handle. If Hitler chooses not to repay, he will see valuable markets and raw material sources dry up (raw materials are less of a concern, especially if the Reich controls the Soviet Union) and lose future credit. Not to mention hurting economies that were intended to buy German exports post-war (if any; truth be told, Nazi Germany's economy was badly placed to do anything but turn out war goods, and demand for tank shells and high-performance fighter planes is limited). This is not a good way of storing up international goodwill. Heck, even the USSR did not go so far as to unilaterally repudiate its obligations.

Hence, Hitler just one a war and lost a peace .... and there will be no more war memorial cemeteries to send the next generation of Germany's unemployed to.
 
The limits on a Halifax makes peace TL is a treaty whereby UK acknowledges German conquests in Europe and Germany leaves the British Empire untouched--you see "friendship" is a two way street. No way is 70% of the RN --or 10% for that matter--going to be surrendered. The Germans do get to absorb most or all of the French Fleet.

There is some handwaving on the Russian Front as well. There is also no need of Germany to annex Sweden. This thing where the Nazis conquer every country in sight is ahistorical--esp. since Sweden would be viewed as an Aryan nation they would try merely to pressure and dominate without invading --and are likely to succeed.
 
First off, as others said, I suspect any armistice Halifax would have accepted (as well as the tentaive ones offered by the Nazis in 1940) would have left the British Empire and Royal Navy largely intact. Without such an offer, Halifax would continue the war. This situation would be considerably different.

But given the premise of this TL, I'd agree with Gamingboy that the long term survival of the European Reich would depend on what the British, Japanese (and the USA) did, long term.

Halifax may have found things to admire in Hitler and National Socialism, but there is no way his government would become a German puppet. Like the Germans after Versailles, the British would be looking for ways to overturn the armistice - especially to rebuild the RN and reassert control over the Middle East.

The USA would be in a essential "cold war" with Germany. It would not recognize most of the German conquests and would possibly recognize many governmets in exile. With Germany so successful, a lot of the isolationist sentiment would disappear. The USA would be actively supporting national liberation movements throughout Europe and, assuming Halifax still governed the UK in a traditional democratic manner, it would extend to England the protection of the US Navy and Air forces. Significant US forces might be based in the UK. If anything the impetus behind the Manhattan project would have accelerated while the victorious Germans would have possibly deemphasized their nuclear, rocket, and jet plane research programs. Who knows, by 1944, it might be the USA and Britain, not Germany putting the first experimental jet-powered fighters into service.

Japan is the real wild card. If the Japanese still attack Pearl Harbor, the USA is entering the war - probably in alliance with the UK, which could not accept Japanese moves against the few remaining outposts of its Empire in SE Asia and the subcontinent. Given his arrogant dislike for decadent America, Hitler would still decare war on the USA, creating a WW2 in December 1941 not radically unlike ours except for the German control on the near east and western USSR. I'd certainly take the USN's chances against Hitler's European Navy composed of British, French, and Italian ships, although it would be tough at first. The Atlantic is a pretty big moat. By 1943, the USA would be outbuilding all of Europe combined. Although the war might drag on a few more years, the USA and UK would win and nukes would rain down on Berlin.
 
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