Make the USA a truly western society

Although the USA considers itself a major defender of "western civilization", in many respects Americans (or at least a lot of them - including several recent recent adminstrations) are increasingly at odds with what other western nations would consider basic premises of modern western civilization: We hold onto the death penalty and long punitive prison terms while western europeans have generally abandoned them. We are becoming more religious while western europeans are becoming more secular. Americans are much more patriotic and nationalistic than most western europeans. America is more likely to opt for unlateralist military responses while western europe is increasingly multilateralist and pacifist, Americans retain considerable sexual conservatism while many western europeans do not, and the list goes on. It is my impression that this divergence began in the late 1940's. In some respects, the USA today almost appears to have more in common with places like Russia, India, China, Singapore, and the moslem world than England, France, Scandinavia, or Australia/New Zealand.

If you agree with this assessment, discuss why it has occured and offer POD's or a POD which would have kept the USA and western Europe on the same cultural trajectory. If you disagree, feel free to state why and alternate alternate explanations. Or was the USA ever truly a western nation?
 
I think the only possible POD which would have kept Europe on a similar course (and yes, I'm suggesting that it's Europe that's changed, not the US) would have to come prior to WWI, disallowing the two great European wars of the 20th century from taking place.

Europe suffers from a potent fear of nationalism, mostly as a result of WW2 Germany, but I wouldn't rest all the blame on Hitler's shoulders. They're afraid that if any one nation becomes too powerful, then said nation will irrevocably upset the balance of power, and march the continent back into war. So now we've got the United, Diluted States of Europe. The desire to keep nationalism in check has led to an austere political correctness in Europe; no one wants to offend anyone else, and so hot button issues (politics, religion) are tucked under the rug. Military decisiveness is unthinkable, lest a nation be branded a warmonger. The sexual mores don't draw an immediate consideration, other than the suggestion that with a less church-centered society, morality is less restricted. (See also: lax drug policies.)

The only European nation which seems to buck the trend (at least occasionally) is the UK, which has -- in its evil nationalistic pride -- tried to avoid being subsumed into the morass of the EU. But even they seem to realize that resistance is futile.

What we're seeing is the gradual homogenization of Europe, and -- by the same process -- a unique kind of isolationism.
 
I think that in the early future that the UK is going to draw less and less closer to Europe. I think Its far more likely for the UK to draw into a trade and defense pact with America and the Core members of the Commonwealth (a successor to Nato and Nafta).
 
Justin,

That'd be nice. The British Isles being drawn into the European "mainstream" has often been a bad thing for its people...look at the Norman Conquest of 1066, which brought on a FAR more oppressive regime than the Saxon and Danish kings (I'm inclined to blame the Normans for the class system) had even been and got them the 100 Years War.

Look at the "metric martyrs." The more Britain is drawn into the EU, the more it's people lose their freedoms.
 
I had a rather lengthy rant typed up, but accidentally closed the window, so you're spared the brilliance of my unassailable logic and wit.

To sum up: The European Union is a recipe for geopolitical irrelevance for the region and its member nations are only emasculating themselves. NATO is a shambling relic and is impotent without the participation of the US and UK.

Sorry, I realize there's not much "alternate history" here.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I think the First World War is to blame - after that in Europe you had the rise of the left-wing parties. In the USA you had the arrest for treason (or whatever) of the Socialist leaders and the emasculation of the party

Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
The US suffers from a bizarre fear of Socialism and the Left whereas in Europe and the British Empire we learned that one could live with it, even if a conservative or an aristocrat, as in effect it was NOT as Communism was. The USA missed this lesson, and in so doing missed the follow on lessons about the welfare state, secularisation and the end of nationalism as a motive force in global politics

Grey Wolf
 
Actually, I think the trend toward greater conservatism in the United States is a good bit older than WWI, and is somewhat common in colonial societies. I'm using colonial in a very special way, here, to refer to societies settled by emigrants from elsewhere.

It's something of a truism that immigrant groups in the United States have cultures and attitudes that resemble those in the old country from the time they left. A lot of Scandinavians, for example, see their American cousins as a sort of time capsule from the 19th century. And, the case with Irish Americans is even more notable, in that they in many cases preserve religious practices and nationalist attitudes dating from 1916.

Not all colonial societies are so conservative, of course. Australia is probably closer to many modern European attitudes for example. OTOH, you can see the same sort of cultural conservatism among the Afrikaners, who are even more set in 17th century modes of thought than Americans, British South Africans, who are still rooted in the 19th century British Empire, and in Brazil, which preserves an archaic form of Portuguese.

America was initially settled in the 17th century, and that is where the roots of American culture still lie. American English, for example, preserves many 17th and 18th century pronounciations and constructions that have become obsolete in the UK. American Protestantism is essentially 17th century Protestantism, modified by the ideals of the American Revolution. That Revolution is often misunderstood. While many of its roots were in the thought of the 18th century Enlightenment, it had deeper roots in the political theories of the Commonwealthists, who were writing immediately after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

The American Constitution rooted 17th and 18th century governmental models in the American body politic, and these models have been very stable ever since. American political discourse has largely been rooted in 17th and 18th century concerns and perspectives ever since.

This has meant that American and European cultures started to diverge by the beginning of the Romantic period, and have become more and more alien ever since. While a taste for Romantic style did cross the Atlantic, the writing of American "Romantics" like Hawthorne are visibly shaped by a 17th century concern with issues of salvation, sin, and redemption, albeit often in metaphorical or somewhat secularized form. Such important Romantic ideas as tribal nationalism, sturm und drang, occultism, and so on never influenced the culture of the United States as they did European culture. Nor did Socialism ever have the same kinds of roots in American national experience as it did in most European countries. The view of Socialism as an alien creed is what drives the American phobia of Socialism and the Left generally. Likewise, Neitzsche, whose influence on European culture has been incalculable since 1900, if not before, was usually regarded by American intellectuals with a great deal of suspicion until at least the 1960s.

In many respects, American and European cultures were more divergent in the year 1900 than they are today. While Europe was still Victorian in 1900, it was beginning to move toward a decadence, lushness, and sensuality that has since become the dominant flavor of European culture. That, depending on one's perspective, Europeans were irreligious sensualists, or Americans hectoring prudes, was already a part of Euro-American interactions in 1900. Likewise, while religion was still strong in Europe, the majority of European intellectuals were secular, often atheist, by 1900. This was much less true in Britain, and not true at all in America. European art at the turn of the 20th century was moving toward Expressionism, European music toward the kind of musical Expressionism found in Stravinsky. American art and music, however, were radically different, and much more conservative.

American popular culture is an exception to this, but less an exception than is often supposed. Country music, for example is rooted in early ballad styles. Blues, Jazz, and Rock music, to name but three, have come from a group marginalized and oppressed within American society. Radical or experimental literature in America almost always comes from one kind of minority or another, while the literature of more mainstream American writers shows the perspective and even styles of the age of Defoe.

During the World Wars, these differences were masked by common historical experiences, and common struggles. However, since the end of the Cold War, they have come again into the open. After the World Wars Europe continued to change rapidly, moving along a secularising, socialistic, and humanitarian trajectory that has led Europeans to both very pleasant societies, and a certain international weakness. The United States has also changed, but more slowly, and in accord with its own internal dynamics and deep-rooted attitudes.

In this regard, it might be better to see America not as a Western society, but more as an outlier of Western culture that took a different turn in the 17th and 18th centuries. In this sense, the relationship between Europe and America is an example of alternate history in the real world.
 
Aedh Rua said:
Actually, I think the trend toward greater conservatism in the United States is a good bit older than WWI, and is somewhat common in colonial societies. I'm using colonial in a very special way, here, to refer to societies settled by emigrants from elsewhere.

It's something of a truism that immigrant groups in the United States have cultures and attitudes that resemble those in the old country from the time they left. A lot of Scandinavians, for example, see their American cousins as a sort of time capsule from the 19th century. And, the case with Irish Americans is even more notable, in that they in many cases preserve religious practices and nationalist attitudes dating from 1916.

Not all colonial societies are so conservative, of course. Australia is probably closer to many modern European attitudes for example. OTOH, you can see the same sort of cultural conservatism among the Afrikaners, who are even more set in 17th century modes of thought than Americans, British South Africans, who are still rooted in the 19th century British Empire, and in Brazil, which preserves an archaic form of Portuguese.

America was initially settled in the 17th century, and that is where the roots of American culture still lie. American English, for example, preserves many 17th and 18th century pronounciations and constructions that have become obsolete in the UK. American Protestantism is essentially 17th century Protestantism, modified by the ideals of the American Revolution. That Revolution is often misunderstood. While many of its roots were in the thought of the 18th century Enlightenment, it had deeper roots in the political theories of the Commonwealthists, who were writing immediately after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

The American Constitution rooted 17th and 18th century governmental models in the American body politic, and these models have been very stable ever since. American political discourse has largely been rooted in 17th and 18th century concerns and perspectives ever since.

This has meant that American and European cultures started to diverge by the beginning of the Romantic period, and have become more and more alien ever since. While a taste for Romantic style did cross the Atlantic, the writing of American "Romantics" like Hawthorne are visibly shaped by a 17th century concern with issues of salvation, sin, and redemption, albeit often in metaphorical or somewhat secularized form. Such important Romantic ideas as tribal nationalism, sturm und drang, occultism, and so on never influenced the culture of the United States as they did European culture. Nor did Socialism ever have the same kinds of roots in American national experience as it did in most European countries. The view of Socialism as an alien creed is what drives the American phobia of Socialism and the Left generally. Likewise, Neitzsche, whose influence on European culture has been incalculable since 1900, if not before, was usually regarded by American intellectuals with a great deal of suspicion until at least the 1960s.

In many respects, American and European cultures were more divergent in the year 1900 than they are today. While Europe was still Victorian in 1900, it was beginning to move toward a decadence, lushness, and sensuality that has since become the dominant flavor of European culture. That, depending on one's perspective, Europeans were irreligious sensualists, or Americans hectoring prudes, was already a part of Euro-American interactions in 1900. Likewise, while religion was still strong in Europe, the majority of European intellectuals were secular, often atheist, by 1900. This was much less true in Britain, and not true at all in America. European art at the turn of the 20th century was moving toward Expressionism, European music toward the kind of musical Expressionism found in Stravinsky. American art and music, however, were radically different, and much more conservative.

American popular culture is an exception to this, but less an exception than is often supposed. Country music, for example is rooted in early ballad styles. Blues, Jazz, and Rock music, to name but three, have come from a group marginalized and oppressed within American society. Radical or experimental literature in America almost always comes from one kind of minority or another, while the literature of more mainstream American writers shows the perspective and even styles of the age of Defoe.

During the World Wars, these differences were masked by common historical experiences, and common struggles. However, since the end of the Cold War, they have come again into the open. After the World Wars Europe continued to change rapidly, moving along a secularising, socialistic, and humanitarian trajectory that has led Europeans to both very pleasant societies, and a certain international weakness. The United States has also changed, but more slowly, and in accord with its own internal dynamics and deep-rooted attitudes.

In this regard, it might be better to see America not as a Western society, but more as an outlier of Western culture that took a different turn in the 17th and 18th centuries. In this sense, the relationship between Europe and America is an example of alternate history in the real world.

Very thought-provoking, and I am in basic agreement. Then - for Americans at least - what should be the response? (1) reveling in this distincton and seeking to preserve it as part of our national hetitage, or (2) recognizing it and seeking to end/reduce this divergence by becoming more like our European cousins? To some extent, these two alternatives are mirrored by Conservative Republicans and Liberal Democrats (although even Liberal Democrats are nationalistic and relgious to an extent unheard of by Social Democrats in Europe.
 
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I agree. I also vote for the first option - celebrating the ways that the US is different from other western countries. Here's to people who aren't afraid to be openly religious and patriotic! :eek:
 

Faeelin

Banned
zoomar said:
Although the USA considers itself a major defender of "western civilization", in many respects Americans (or at least a lot of them - including several recent recent adminstrations) are increasingly at odds with what other western nations would consider basic premises of modern western civilization: We hold onto the death penalty and long punitive prison terms while western europeans have generally abandoned them. We are becoming more religious while western europeans are becoming more secular. Americans are much more patriotic and nationalistic than most western europeans. America is more likely to opt for unlateralist military responses while western europe is increasingly multilateralist and pacifist, Americans retain considerable sexual conservatism while many western europeans do not, and the list goes on. It is my impression that this divergence began in the late 1940's. In some respects, the USA today almost appears to have more in common with places like Russia, India, China, Singapore, and the moslem world than England, France, Scandinavia, or Australia/New Zealand.

Are you saying that western civilization boils down to being promiscuous, pacifist, and anti-death penalty?
 
Faeelin said:
Are you saying that western civilization boils down to being promiscuous, pacifist, and anti-death penalty?

Nope, but these are some of the overt characteristics of it today, at least as practiced in many areas of "The West"
 
Faeelin said:
Are you saying that western civilization boils down to being promiscuous, pacifist, and anti-death penalty?

No not those particular issues, but the values that they are manifestations for. Humanism, secularism, liberalism, socialdemocracy... There are other things too, but those things are very important for western civilization.
 
Isn't it more to the fact that to be a 'western civilization' means that the nations share an inherited legacy from Ancient Greece and Rome? Tho most likely more from the former than the latter, as opposed to have inherited anything from the East, such as Persia, India or China?

On the whole, when there is consideration in exporting, or imposing, the hallmarks of Western Civilization don't those predominately deal with a democratic representative government, free press and free trade? If one includes includes Latin America, which it should, into the context of Modern Western Civilization, doesn't Europe's near secularization make it the actual odd man out?
 
David S Poepoe said:
Isn't it more to the fact that to be a 'western civilization' means that the nations share an inherited legacy from Ancient Greece and Rome? Tho most likely more from the former than the latter, as opposed to have inherited anything from the East, such as Persia, India or China?

On the whole, when there is consideration in exporting, or imposing, the hallmarks of Western Civilization don't those predominately deal with a democratic representative government, free press and free trade? If one includes includes Latin America, which it should, into the context of Modern Western Civilization, doesn't Europe's near secularization make it the actual odd man out?

The Ancient civilization is long dead, what remains are some ruins and some literature that had the good luck of surviving. All in all however it is dead. We belong to the Western civilization, a civilization born in the aftermath of the fall of the Old world (around 800 AD would be a good place to put the birthdate). Western civilisation hase no more to do with the Ancient one then the Turks have or the Arabs.
 

Faeelin

Banned
zoomar said:
Nope, but these are some of the overt characteristics of it today, at least as practiced in many areas of "The West"

This does not mean they're hallmarks of western civilization, any more than putting up Christmas trees means you're a devout Christian.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Peter said:
The Ancient civilization is long dead, what remains are some ruins and some literature that had the good luck of surviving. All in all however it is dead. We belong to the Western civilization, a civilization born in the aftermath of the fall of the Old world (around 800 AD would be a good place to put the birthdate). Western civilisation hase no more to do with the Ancient one then the Turks have or the Arabs.

You realize that the western civilization with a starting point around 800 AD is heavily based around Christian thought?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Peter said:
No not those particular issues, but the values that they are manifestations for. Humanism, secularism, liberalism, socialdemocracy... There are other things too, but those things are very important for western civilization.

I see. And it's at this point I'm leaving this thread. Goodbye.
 
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