No Anglo-German Naval Race

In the last quarter of the 19th century, Wilhelm II's Germany was engaged in a fairly vigorous naval building program of high-end capital ships. The British naturally assumed this to be part of some sort of dastardly German plot, and was a contributing factor to the souring relations between the two in the pre-WWI years. So, suppose that Willy was not as enthusiastic about big ships as in OTL, and the major German building programs never happen. Germany still has a nice cruiser-based navy, but few (if any) battleships. Ideas?
 
Have the Kaiser born as a normal child. That's the only way to get this to happen. The Germans will still experience a naval buildup either way, namely because Germany needed to protect its colonial interests. However, without Wilhelm's constantly shifting policies, Britain won't be as threatened by Germany. They were more afraid of the Kaiser's mood swings than anything else. A large navy that can challenge the RN plus an unstable national leader was a bad combination, at least to the British.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Interesting, Ace, you're saying that his withered arm basically gave him the temperament he had? Not impossible, considering it was something to overcome, and at the same time something to show he had overcome. Were he born without it, he would feel less need on a personal level to prove himself ?

Grey Wolf
 

Chris

Banned
IIRC, the Kasier wanted nothing more than to excel on the field of battle. He could not due to his arm problems, which gave him a sense of inferority.

I don't say that would change his need to prove himself, but it would channel it on to the field of warfare as a commander, rather than a pampered prince. With Bismarck and the older Molke to instruct him, he might do well at it. No break with Bismarck alone, whould change history in itself.

Chris
 
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Susano

Banned
Wilhlem had a very harsh childhood, mostly because of his physical disablities. If he had not, he maybe would not hav become so... odd and extreme in some aspects.
 
The Imperial German Navy was becoming battleship orientated before Tirpitz came to power. If Frederick III had come to the throne there is the possibility, and very probable I think, that there would have been a naval arms race of sorts anyway. Realistically, the Anglo-German Naval Arms Race only becomes solely Anglo-German after the Anglo-French Entente Cordial and the defeat of Russia during the Russo-Japanese War, basically 1904-1905.

The Kaiser himself, much like Tirpitz, identified himself with the Battleship clique within the Imperial Navy, but such interests predate whenever he finally made up his mind. The Anglo-German Arms Race is just a sequel to the Anglo-Franco and Anglo-Russian Arms Races that regularly occured throughout the 19th century. One could consider that its entirely likely that an Anglo-American Naval Arms Race could have occured, and was probably in its opening stages before being aborted by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
I guess you make a good point that the naval race can be divided up into segments. It is arguable that Germany NEEDED to complete the first of Tirpitz's naval laws in order to have a fleet commensurate with her status (interestingly 'commensurate' is one of those words George Bush always gets wrong and has some odd 'commiserate's instead)

It was only when the dreadnought race came on that it got REALLY serious and high tension. A fleet of relatively short-range dreadnought battleships could ONLY be aimed at Britain, and had gone beyond the build up necessary for Great Power status.

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
It was only when the dreadnought race came on that it got REALLY serious and high tension. A fleet of relatively short-range dreadnought battleships could ONLY be aimed at Britain, and had gone beyond the build up necessary for Great Power status.

Grey Wolf

Not necessarily. Don't forget Russia and France. German naval thought was driven by the its lack of naval success in the early to mid 19th century. Also since the British played an active hand in the Germans not getting very many overseas colonies that would limit one to a short range fleet. Germany's naval might is particularly important in the North Sea and the Baltic. Placing any faith in the continued good graces of the British is a rather idiotic thing to do, especially when your trade rivals with them. One of the best reasons, from the point of view of any Power really, to having a battlefleet that would make the British think twice would so that they WOULD think twice before interfering. One removes the possibility that they will they act first before negotiating.
 
Alasdair Czyrnyj said:
So, suppose that Willy was not as enthusiastic about big ships as in OTL, and the major German building programs never happen. Germany still has a nice cruiser-based navy, but few (if any) battleships. Ideas?


With Germany´s industrial potential going up, they will build high-end ships the bigger the better, to show their capabilities in the way of armaments and also as "reference products" to sell abroad.
Also, the battleship projects power like no other contemporary ship.


So my proposition: The german army gets more imperial, with more influence of the central government over the other state´s forces, so that the Kriegsmarine is not the only "German" service. We have to make this change during the writing of the constitution during the founding of the Reich.

- This means that specific appeal the navy had for "Nationalists" and the Kaiser himself who had more influence on naval affairs than anybody else, will be lessened.

- So the consensus between the higher staffs, high politics and the national pressure groups is that "every ton of steel sailing through the north sea will
be missing on the French Front."

- The Navy will be a coastal defense navy, with plans to mine the Baltic approaches and the North sea coastal areas, with the major ships serving as support to the army on the advance to Petersburg.
 
One way of not having an Anglo-German arms race would be to eliminate Alfred Thayer Mahan, whose book inspired the Kaiser and Tirpitz, as well as others, including Theodore Roosevelt.

If he is killed off, say, then Teddy builds no Great White Fleet, Tirpitz has less influence, and the Kaiser is still obssessed with the Royal Navy, but doesn't realize that his two dreams go hand in hand, a colonial empire which follows from having a battle fleet.

It would be interesting to see the composition of the Royal Navy around 1914.
 
The Fleet Germany needs...

Germany needs a fleet of modern battleships and bsttlecruisers to be considered a great power. The question is, how big?
I would think that the battlefleet needs to be big enough to defeat the French and the Russians sequentially. A program perhaps 2/3 of the historical program might do--2 Nassau's, 2 Helgolands, 4 Kaisers, 4 Konigs, and (eventually) a pair of Baydens. Battlecruisers can be mimimised--perhaps 2 or 3, since France and Russia aren't building any.
Use the extra funds for either long range cruisers for raiding French trade, or for the army.
Mine warfare forces are a necessity--if war with Britain does break out, the fleet won't be able to keep the RN away.
Britain should be reasurred that the fleet is not intended to contest the seas with the Royal Navy--a treaty ratio might help there, or some sort of informal understanding. The ability to match the French and Russians must not be negotiated away, though.
Since the ships are fewer in numbers, they can be a bit larger, and have decent range and habitability. They might really be able to protect the colonies...
 
Phoenix said:
One way of not having an Anglo-German arms race would be to eliminate Alfred Thayer Mahan, whose book inspired the Kaiser and Tirpitz, as well as others, including Theodore Roosevelt.

If he is killed off, say, then Teddy builds no Great White Fleet, Tirpitz has less influence, and the Kaiser is still obssessed with the Royal Navy, but doesn't realize that his two dreams go hand in hand, a colonial empire which follows from having a battle fleet.

It would be interesting to see the composition of the Royal Navy around 1914.

Your buying into Tirpitz's own self-aggrandizement. Tirpitz was great at grabbing the limelight and drawing attention to himself. He basically hijacked a movement in the German Navy that was already present and influential. The Kaiser just followed which everway the wind was blowing - or shared the opinion of the last person to talk with him.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
NHBL said:
Germany needs a fleet of modern battleships and bsttlecruisers to be considered a great power. The question is, how big?
I would think that the battlefleet needs to be big enough to defeat the French and the Russians sequentially. A program perhaps 2/3 of the historical program might do--2 Nassau's, 2 Helgolands, 4 Kaisers, 4 Konigs, and (eventually) a pair of Baydens. Battlecruisers can be mimimised--perhaps 2 or 3, since France and Russia aren't building any.
Use the extra funds for either long range cruisers for raiding French trade, or for the army.
Mine warfare forces are a necessity--if war with Britain does break out, the fleet won't be able to keep the RN away.
Britain should be reasurred that the fleet is not intended to contest the seas with the Royal Navy--a treaty ratio might help there, or some sort of informal understanding. The ability to match the French and Russians must not be negotiated away, though.
Since the ships are fewer in numbers, they can be a bit larger, and have decent range and habitability. They might really be able to protect the colonies...

Interesting, but revising my previous opinion :) I think that the naval race per se really hotted up with the Braunschweigs and Deutschlands - if you look at the numbers of German battleships laid down and completed at the start of the century there is a massive spike. Ironically, if the Braunschweig and Deutschland classes had either been smaller, or combined into one smaller class, then the money and resources which went into these relatively quickly obselete classes would not have been spent. Staggerig the building programme, and thus having one Braunschweig-Deutschland class, and therefore one Nassau-Thuringen class could also have advantages in that the first German dreadnoughts, whilst appearing slightly later would not be as weak as the Nassaus were historically.

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
I think that the naval race per se really hotted up with the Braunschweigs and Deutschlands - if you look at the numbers of German battleships laid down and completed at the start of the century there is a massive spike.
Grey Wolf

And there's a reason for that. When the H.M.S. Dreadnought made everything that was built before obsolete, it essentially leveled the playing field between Britain and Germany. Before that, Germany really had no chance to catch up to Britain. With a newly leveled playing field, they figured they might just have that chance now. And so, the massive spike in building.
 
If you want to avoid the naval race either have Friedrich Wilhelm II avoid cancer or give Wilhelm II a good right arm. Friedrich is the best choice, since he is a known anglophile (married to a brit as well). He might very well propose a treaty to Great Britain like the "Flottenvertrag" of 1935 where Germany pledged to keep it`s capital ships at 35 % of the british tonnage. Here I would think that 50 % or so might be more realistic. That would allow Germany to compete with France and Russia without threatening the Brits.
 
Note however that many experts say that HMS Dreadnought was NOT the first "Dreadnought". It think it was the USS Michigan but I am relying on memory of books read 20 or so yeas ago
 

Redbeard

Banned
Derek Jackson said:
Note however that many experts say that HMS Dreadnought was NOT the first "Dreadnought". It think it was the USS Michigan but I am relying on memory of books read 20 or so yeas ago

The design of Michigan probably goes back further than that of Dreadnought, but Dreadnought was completed much before Michigan, and anyway Michigan did not have the other and at least as important factor of Dreadnought - namely the turbine propulsion. With turbines warships could steam at high speed for long time and with very little vibration. The Michigan did have one novel factor compered to Dreadnought and that was the superimposed turrets, but that is a very minor detail compared to turbines. BTW Michigan was a lousy seaboat.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
If teh Japanese hadn't ran out of money for 12" turrets it would have been the Satsuma, and the mighty new generation of battleships would have had a very silly name indeed. it was just lucky that people with cool warship names got there first.
 
I don't think we ever would have known all-big-gun warships as 'Michigans' or 'Satsumas' or any other likely permutation. At the least they would have probably continued to have been known as battleships. The main reasons I consider is that: everyone emulated the Royal Navy (even those that say they didn't) and Jane's and Brassey's warship manuals probably wouldn't have refered to them as such. If Fisher had decided to name the Dreadnought, HMS Superb - 'Since she is the most superb of fighting ships' (or some such Fisherism), would we have know this ships as "Superbs"? Possible, but does it sound right?
 
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