World Religion challenge

By the present day, get these religions to be the biggest three (in no particular order): Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity. (No big problem on the last one, I'm sure.) Bonus if you don't erase other religions, like Islam, and a bigger bonus if one of the first two religions spreads to the New World.
 
It seems to me this would be fairly difficult to imagine without a PoD quite early creating a stronger and more powerful Indian civilization...one that contacted the new world well before the Spanish would have. Also, it's hard to imagine a polythesitic and strongly synchretic faith like Hinduism spreading much father once monotheistic and evangelizing faiths like Christianity or Islam are around.

On the other hand, a few more wars and plagues in Europe and the mid east might just do the trick.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
zoomar said:
It seems to me this would be fairly difficult to imagine without a PoD quite early creating a stronger and more powerful Indian civilization...one that contacted the new world well before the Spanish would have. Also, it's hard to imagine a polythesitic and strongly synchretic faith like Hinduism spreading much father once monotheistic and evangelizing faiths like Christianity or Islam are around.

On the other hand, a few more wars and plagues in Europe and the mid east might just do the trick.
Hinduism spread as far as Bali, didn't it? As I understand it, most of the states in SE Asia were Buddhist or Hindu before the arrival of Islam.

If Persia managed to get its stuff together and prevent Islam from penetrating into the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia, Hinduism and Buddhism would be the world's largest religions. Even if the Sassanians held off for another few centuries, it would do the trick (the establishment of Islam in SE Asia is fairly recent, IIRC).
 
Also, one possibility not looked at is the idea that Buddhism spreads into China from Afghanistan and from there into Japan but instead of spreading to Southeast Asia, is carried West by emissaries of the Mauryan empire and subsequent kingdoms in India. In going West, let us assume in this ATL it finds support in Persia, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and elsewhere. As for Hinduism, it retains its foothold in S. East Asia and expands to throughout the entire region. Place names and the histories of various S.EastAsian countries from THailand to Indonesia show a Hindu presence and that presence, without Buddhism and Islam to contend with might well have lasted much longer. Meanwhile, Sassanid Persia's defiance of the armies of Islam would mean Hinduism retains its hold over all of the Indian Subcontinent after reabsorbing Buddhism, as it did in OTL. Buddhism meanwhile spreads to China and Japan as it did, along with gaining a strong presence in Korea. This is interesting.
 
Leo Caesius said:
Hinduism spread as far as Bali, didn't it? As I understand it, most of the states in SE Asia were Buddhist or Hindu before the arrival of Islam.

If Persia managed to get its stuff together and prevent Islam from penetrating into the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia, Hinduism and Buddhism would be the world's largest religions. Even if the Sassanians held off for another few centuries, it would do the trick (the establishment of Islam in SE Asia is fairly recent, IIRC).


What I meant to say was that Hinduism would probably have a hard time spreading to areas where Islam or Christianity was already ascendant. Actually, I agree with most folks that this is fairly easy AH to accomplish since Hinduism and Buddhism are already dominant in the most populous places on earth. If you can keep Europeans from settling the entire new world en masse you've probably done the trick without making Hinduism or Buddhism any more popular in Eurasia.
 
Interesting. So, if Persia can hold off Islam (what religion was Persia before it was conquered? Mithras? I don't quite remember.), the Hindu settlements in Kabul and others will survive, and it perhaps spreads into SE Asia? What are the possibilities of Hindu or Buddhist settlements in the New World or Australia? Having China settle some parts of North America wouldn't be too hard to do, but what about India?
 
Zoomar, I agree that Hinduism is not exactly conducive to being widely spread, in the evangelical manner that Christianity and Islam were and the philosophical manner Buddhism was. However, supposing that Buddhism spread to China and Japan as usual, but Southeast Asia remains primarily Hindu/Hindu influenced due to trade links with India transmitting culture, then we can assume that such influences would eventually reach Australia and NZ in ATL without substantial Buddhist and later Islamic influence. Then, let us suppose that Buddhism, along with going to China and Japan, spreads west to the Middle East. BTW, Persia was Zoroastrian if I recall. Buddhism also shall spread to Central Asia and gain strong roots there in this ATL. When it spreads West however, let us assume that it gains influence in Mesopotamia, from where it spreads to Anatolia and Syria, and eventually parts of North Africa. I am thinking here that a Buddhism with some strong presence in the Middle East and North Africa would slow down Islam's drive, along with a stronger Persia. Meanwhile, we shall add in a POD that China doesn't abandon its treasure fleets under Cheng Ho but instead keeps them. They eventually sail to the New World, where Buddhism becomes dominant. So, we have a scenario in which India and Southeast Asia, along with much of Oceania is Hindu while China, Japan, much of Central Asia, and most of the New World is Buddhist while Christianity is strong in Europe, North Africa, parts of Central Asia, and makes gains in Sub-Saharan Africa due to Portuguese and later Spanish efforts (Spain is no longer interested in a root to the New World as China has already found one and trade with China, which now has more material to trade, is more important).

What does everyoen think?
 
Very interesting. I can imagine the New World with a Buddhist west and a Christian east. Something I was just playing around with in my head is some Hindu areas of South America emerging. If it spreads from India and SE Asia into Australia and Polynesia, I could see a settelment on the west South American coast. Doesn't have to be very big, but something the size of say, Chile (meaning a strip of land on the coast) could be interesting.

What are the chances of an India unconquered by Islam becoming a powerful nation in most aspects?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Hinduism might also have spread to the Eastern coast of Africa, where there were strong economic ties to India, in addition to Indonesia.

Persia at the time of the Islamic Conquest was quite multireligious - but the rulers were Zoroastrian, and not very enamored of religious tolerance (the mobed Kartir boasts in one of his inscriptions that he has persecuted practically every religion imaginable).

Most of Central Asia had gone either Buddhist or Manichaean; IIRC, there were very few Hindus or Zoroastrians remaining there (although there was a strong Iranian substrate everywhere). The famous Bamian Buddhas, which the Taleban destroyed in 1999 or 2000, were located in Afghanistan, and were the world's largest representations of the Buddha before they were blown to smithereens. The Bactrians and the Sogdians were predominantly Buddhist, but Manichaeism became more popular as you travelled further east. The Uyghurs were Manichaean before they converted to Islam
 
How many Nestorians were in Central Asia in the pre-Islamic times? I've read some Assyrian church sites that talk about all the missions they ran and ethnic groups they converted, but they're a little partial.
 
Buddhism is iffy as it isn't very wide spread alone though merges with other religions.
For that to be a major religion I suppose you could have the communists fail to take over China and it would remain buddhist. With all the people in China and the existing buddhists I'm sure that would make it a pretty major religion.
 
A possible POD could have been around Alexander's conquest of Persia; had he failed, and had Persia survived the following centuries as an independent (and potentially strong) empire, it would have diminished or stopped Roman influence and Greek influence, which in turn resulted in popularity of monotheistic religions like Christianity and Islam. While Greece and Rome would still have been likely to become Christian, even if Islam appeared, stronger Persia and Rome would have made it a regional cult/religion at best. Therefore, with no Islam in Far East, Hinduism could prosper.
 
Here is one possible POD

The Byzantines and Persians patch up some form of detente, so they don't exhaust themselves fighting. that wat, when the Arabs erupt they are beaten back and Isalm remains a desert cult.

This leaves as main religious groups: Catholic Christianity (W Europe), Orthodox Christianity (Byzantine), Zoroasterism (Persia), Hindu (India) and Buddhism (much else of SE Asia). Plus the Chinese.

The tribes of Central Asia would go either Byzantine or Persian - whatever the Mongols become could then dominate China, but with a Chinese touch - also with a strong Buddhist influence. Probably a Buddhist style religion with some Christian influences.

Persian Zoroastrianism wasn't that proseltysing a religion - even today, its adherents the Parsees, are dwindling as to be one, both parents must also have been adherents. So, assume Zoroastrianism limited to Persia.

The New World, would probably go to whoever found it first (well re-found it as the native americans were there long before). - Maybe Catholic, maybe Orhodox - I'd bet on the latter, greater Byzantine political power would help push the religion across the Med and cement a reconquest of Spain.

Africa - well, maybe Islam, spread by Arab traders who kept the faith. If not, again, probably Orthodox. Then again, with no Caliphate, what is to stop the Hindu traders from reaching Africa. So, maybe East Africa becomes a hodge-podge of mercantile enclaves of differing religions.

That's a few of the top of the head ideas - feel free to rip them to shreds.
 
Windsor said:
If you had India colonize America the natives might end up being Indians anyway, just New Indians...
Heh that gives me a thought- Europeans thought America was the indies so called the native americans indians.
If people from the indies discovered America would they call the natives Europeans? :D
 
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