African nation in america

Actually, there is a strong argument to be made that African-Americans are a separate nation. They go to separate churches, watch different T.V. shows, live in segregated areas (though less than before), largely intermarry within their own group, speak with a different accent (some say language), go to different universities, listen (to some extent) to different music, and have done these things consistently for hundreds of years. Most nations in the world aren't that old. Although in some ways (integration, borrowing from black music by white youth culture) the distinct nature of African-Americans has lessened in the past 30 years, in others (kwanzaa, TV shows) it has increased. On balance, I think they have successfully maintained a seperate culture. In fact, it may be that black Americans are more distinct from non-black Americans than English-Canadians are. Of course, the seperate nationhood of English-Canadians is debatable (down troll, down). I was certainly not suggesting a successful back-to-Africa movement. African-Americans are a new world people, just as Quebecois or Argentinians are. Back-to-Africa failed in OTL, just as Back-to-Israel has largely failed for American Jews. People don't generally emigrate from the new world (Can anyone think of a successful movement?). Instead, I was suggesting an ATL with a successful separate black homeland on American soil. It's a very tough realistic (non-ASB) ATL to do. I've never seen one on this group.

Just reading over the new Turtledove, and got me thinking about African
Republics in America. I have seen a couple TLs with the
African-Americans either setting up or trying to set up some sort of
African Republics. Examples; The Revolution in the new Turtledove. One
TL on the list, can't remember all, but something like the Civil War
turned into a Vietnam sort thing. The Freed Slaves were used to put
down the Southern Rebels, and later on they Revolted. Another is the
CAS TL, in which the South make a African Homeland in America.

So, what would be the best bet for a UARA? Here are some ideas I have:

1. South wins the Civil War, then makes a homeland for all those freed slaves to live in so they don't bother the whites.
2. Civil War happens much like OTL, but the Radical Republicans make it so the Blacks are permanatly in power. Later on, because most of the Black stay in the South, Civil Rights are not that wide spread. In responce, the South lives the Union again, this time with Black leaders.
3. South wins the Civil War, treats the Blacks terrible, leading them to revolt and set up their own country.
4. USA never is formed. Smaller Southern States and more prone to Slave Revolts, leading to a scattering of African Republics throughout the South.
5. Civil War is completly avoided, and gradual Empacipation is used. The Freed Slaves are given land out west, where they ally with the Indians. In the wars that follow, the alliance of Blacks and Indians forms their own nations.
6. The Civil Rights movement goes violent, leading to a massive attempt by southern governors to put down the blacks. A Civil War within the south is fought, ending with an independent South under African-American rule.
7. The CSA wins the civil war and holds on to slavery until the ealry 20th century. During the great depression the confederacy is taken over in a black " Communist(think a compromise between cuban and swedish socialism)" revolution.

These are just some ideas I have thrown out. Not sure about them. Just
would like to get some responce on this.

I can't see any nation, particularly the United States, allowing another nation to be carved out of it, where there were no previous divisions. I'm pretty sure that the US Constitution establishes itself as the Supreme Law of the Land and if secession didn't work in 1860 why does anyone think it'll work now - or at least through the 1980s. The major problem is that the area of the new nation will posse those individuals who do not want to be part of the new nation. A situation like the division of Pakistan and India is most likely.

failing the actual nation idea could we see as a reconstruction era masure states meade out of the black belt areas of the south?

Straha said:

Actually, there is a strong argument to be made that African-Americans are a separate nation. They go to separate churches, watch different T.V. shows, live in segregated areas (though less than before), largely intermarry within their own group, speak with a different accent (some say language), go to different universities, listen (to some extent) to different music, and have done these things consistently for hundreds of years. Most nations in the world aren't that old. Although in some ways (integration, borrowing from black music by white youth culture) the distinct nature of African-Americans has lessened in the past 30 years, in others (kwanzaa, TV shows) it has increased. On balance, I think they have successfully maintained a seperate culture. In fact, it may be that black Americans are more distinct from non-black Americans than English-Canadians are. Of course, the seperate nationhood of English-Canadians is debatable (down troll, down). I was certainly not suggesting a successful back-to-Africa movement. African-Americans are a new world people, just as Quebecois or Argentinians are. Back-to-Africa failed in OTL, just as Back-to-Israel has largely failed for American Jews. People don't generally emigrate from the new world (Can anyone think of a successful movement?). Instead, I was suggesting an ATL with a successful separate black homeland on American soil. It's a very tough realistic (non-ASB) ATL to do. I've never seen one on this group.

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That extent of that is debatable. The cliche "everyone wants to be black" says it best. The partition between African-American and Caucasian sub-cultures has largely vanished and the separation is miantained by momentum and the impression of a great extent of separation is maintained by popular culture. On the ground level, however, that isn't entirely true. I can testify to the fact that many ethnic groups, newly arrived (with in the last 5-30 years) or not, are over-lapping, based upon what I have experienced first-hand. The farther you go in the 20th century, the less likely it is, so you would have to go back a ways.

I could imagine the an autonomous territory, e.g. like modern Indian reservations, being given to imported slaves from Africa if the importation of slaves hadn't been banned ealier in the 19th century, or if the CSA had started importing more slave labor during the ACW to help with the war effort. A Union victory in the ACW leaves them with tens or hundreds of thousands of on African blacks who are not assimilating well into society. They carve out a partitioned territory out West and give them their forty acres and a mule, allowing them autonomy and self-government. Later waves of immigration by African-Americans into the autonomous territory boost the population.

Straha said:

failing the actual nation idea could we see as a reconstruction era masure states meade out of the black belt areas of the south?

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I can't really see how carving up new states out of old one will benefit anyone. There will be no long term benefit. This is the ultimate in gerrymandering - and would probably be heavily supported by the Democrats today. You will have to assume that businesses will go there also. Why will blacks want to initially move to such a state and what will keep them there if job oppurtunities are better somewhere else. Since there's no Constitutional way you can keep anyone from moving into the state, why bother making it racially exclusive. All you are doing is taking segregation to a higher level which will promote the idea of short changing certain states. I can't see how anyone can believe that integration - no matter how long it takes - will be worse off that segregation.

thats true.. I mena rock music/any type of music influenced by rock has some black roots, all americna foods like watermelon/fried chicken also black and don't forget the youth culture. They're assimilating like the irish immigrants beofe them and how asian/hispanic immigrants will assimilate while also changing the society.

well, I'm black and at first I thought a lot like ya'll did but then I took a trip up into 'Yankeeland" and later Canada and figured that America is mostly a single monoculture with several intermingling sub-cultures that are different, but not very distinct and all 100% American. Hell I switch between then all the time, I notice that I even speak and act differently when i go to school up North and when i go back home to Louisiana (another sub-culture there). Anyways, my basic point here is that black cluture IS an American culture and has little, if anything, to do with African cultures. Another indicator as mentioned earlier is that black culture is hardly limited to blacks anymore with white, hispanic, and perticually asian youths adopting it for themselves.