How do we get a Starship Troopers type society to occur in a country in this world? I am referring to the novel by Heinlein, not the movie. In it, the world is run by the military where only those who've served and are considered veterans are eligigble for political franchise, everyone else are civilians and cannot vote (at least I think that's how its is...been a while since i read it). I can't see it happening to the whole world, but maybe one country somewhere on this planet we call Earth, I can see. I am thinking sometime in the 20th century, maybe after WW2 would be most likely. What PODs are necessaru for this and how would it play out? Is the 20thC the most likely choice? COuld it have happened in the 19th or before? WHat country - I'm thinking somewhere in Europe or Asia that rose out of the ashes of Nazi/Japanese occupation?
Veterans and Civilians
- Thread starter kek
- Start date
Service men
Remenber it is not just the Soldiers, but all Govt services, If Mac Authur had joined the Bonus Army instead of Attacking it.
Another chose would be German Soldiers in the late twenties
Or Russians, 1917 {The time came when the Soldiers, did what soldiers have wanted to do since time immoral, They picked up their weapons, and went home}
With different leadership.............
Remenber it is not just the Soldiers, but all Govt services, If Mac Authur had joined the Bonus Army instead of Attacking it.
Another chose would be German Soldiers in the late twenties
Or Russians, 1917 {The time came when the Soldiers, did what soldiers have wanted to do since time immoral, They picked up their weapons, and went home}
With different leadership.............
I think everyone just speaks English as it is the future and thats the way the world seems to be going with practically everyone who has had a education knowing English.
It did sort of happen amongst democratic empires didn't it? The settlers go in and fight the natives and only the settlers can vote. It stretches the definition of soldier but I'm sure some sort of Roman style soldiers settling the lands they fought for thing could be worked out by someone.
I remember another topic about this once which pointed out how much the uniforms look like those of nazis.
It did sort of happen amongst democratic empires didn't it? The settlers go in and fight the natives and only the settlers can vote. It stretches the definition of soldier but I'm sure some sort of Roman style soldiers settling the lands they fought for thing could be worked out by someone.
I remember another topic about this once which pointed out how much the uniforms look like those of nazis.
Well, I think the movie (and this wasn't verhofens doing, but the screenwriters) was supposed to be a big joke- in the DVD commentary the screenwriter say's he's sort of disturbed that people actually liked the movie without even seeing the fascist subtext.
You know, blond hero goes off to kill huge horde of mindless hivelike enemies run by a small group of hyperintelligent yet weak and cowardly beings. I think the movie is really wonderful beacuse it's so straight-faced in it's totally positive view of fascisim. I don't think many people got the joke, though.
I also think that a "starship troopers" (the book) type of society could easily arise in post WWI germany. Say that Trotsky has more power in the soviet union right from the get-go. The KPD (sp?) makes an even larger effort to seize power than in OTL- imagine 1918 munich all over the country. The freikorps wage a bona-fide civil war, and win. A "trench government" ends up taking power, headed by a former general, and adhering to good old-fashioned prussian militarisim. You want sufferage? You serve. Opting out of conscription is easy, at the price of being an outcast and scorned by the vast majority of society.
...It'd be interesting to see how this sort of government would handle the 30's and WW2. Hell, how they would handle the nazi's would be interesting. Would the nazis even arise in this TL?
With trotsky in power in the USSR and a Freikorps-based militarist regime in germany, I think something like WW2 is just inevitable, although it may be a european crusade against communsim.
You know, blond hero goes off to kill huge horde of mindless hivelike enemies run by a small group of hyperintelligent yet weak and cowardly beings. I think the movie is really wonderful beacuse it's so straight-faced in it's totally positive view of fascisim. I don't think many people got the joke, though.
I also think that a "starship troopers" (the book) type of society could easily arise in post WWI germany. Say that Trotsky has more power in the soviet union right from the get-go. The KPD (sp?) makes an even larger effort to seize power than in OTL- imagine 1918 munich all over the country. The freikorps wage a bona-fide civil war, and win. A "trench government" ends up taking power, headed by a former general, and adhering to good old-fashioned prussian militarisim. You want sufferage? You serve. Opting out of conscription is easy, at the price of being an outcast and scorned by the vast majority of society.
...It'd be interesting to see how this sort of government would handle the 30's and WW2. Hell, how they would handle the nazi's would be interesting. Would the nazis even arise in this TL?
With trotsky in power in the USSR and a Freikorps-based militarist regime in germany, I think something like WW2 is just inevitable, although it may be a european crusade against communsim.
Starhip Troopers as Leninist
It's probably been a while since you read the book, so;
1. You don't have to serve, some people do, most don't. Some cultures do (Finland very high), some cultures don't (India very low). He said it, not me, if there is anybody from India on this board.
2. If you serve, you spend most of your time working for the government. Your chance of serving in the armed forces is low, your chance of serving in the combat forces is even lower, and your chance of serving in combat is lower yet.
3. You don't get special economic privileges if you serve. This isn't a neoapartheid society like Israel where access to social services depends on whether your father served. It also isn't like the Communist countries where access to social services depends on whether your parents or you are members of the party.
4. Anybody can serve and they must accept you. Again, this is not like Israel where they don't tend to take Arabs in the armed forces. Though there are some. Some Moslem Arabs convert to Judaism, too.
It's probably been a while since you read the book, so;
1. You don't have to serve, some people do, most don't. Some cultures do (Finland very high), some cultures don't (India very low). He said it, not me, if there is anybody from India on this board.
2. If you serve, you spend most of your time working for the government. Your chance of serving in the armed forces is low, your chance of serving in the combat forces is even lower, and your chance of serving in combat is lower yet.
3. You don't get special economic privileges if you serve. This isn't a neoapartheid society like Israel where access to social services depends on whether your father served. It also isn't like the Communist countries where access to social services depends on whether your parents or you are members of the party.
4. Anybody can serve and they must accept you. Again, this is not like Israel where they don't tend to take Arabs in the armed forces. Though there are some. Some Moslem Arabs convert to Judaism, too.
I'm just bumping this thread up. I reread Starship Troopers recently. WI American society was like the fictional one? What if the US Constitution was amended so one could not vote in federal elections unless they had completed a term of federal service (military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps, Border Patrol etc.). What would the effects be on our society? Pretty much the same, with less voters? Or would it be more right-wing and authoritarian? Or perhaps it would tilt us to the left, with the veterans voting themselves all sorts of welfare entitlements and benefits in exchange for their service? Any ideas?
Civil service veterans are not the bread-and-circuses type. If the system is as per Heinlein, they've managed to ensure that boot camp, or its bureacratic equivalent, is sufficiently grueling that only people who are willing to suffer privation for their country remain in the service.
Conversely, like any oligarchy, those in power tend to believe they deserve that power. This is even more so when they can honestly say that they've worked damned hard for the franchise. Thus, I'd foresee a fairly centralized government, economy, and so forth; the people in charge are "clearly" better able, by dint of training and motivation, to run things than the civvies. I'd expect that there's not going to be much in the way of fiscal welfare, but that education availability is going to be a major priority: if you're too lazy to work, you get to starve, but if you're eager to learn, then you ought to be given the opportunity to learn, join the civil service, and make a man out of yourself.
Conversely, like any oligarchy, those in power tend to believe they deserve that power. This is even more so when they can honestly say that they've worked damned hard for the franchise. Thus, I'd foresee a fairly centralized government, economy, and so forth; the people in charge are "clearly" better able, by dint of training and motivation, to run things than the civvies. I'd expect that there's not going to be much in the way of fiscal welfare, but that education availability is going to be a major priority: if you're too lazy to work, you get to starve, but if you're eager to learn, then you ought to be given the opportunity to learn, join the civil service, and make a man out of yourself.
Reading the book now-
Everyone doesn't speak English though it is the language of the military.
The system doesn't seem that strict and militaristic. Its more like doing national service- something that is compulsary in most countries of the world. Except this world is even more democratic then ours so you have the choice of doing it or not.
Everyone doesn't speak English though it is the language of the military.
The system doesn't seem that strict and militaristic. Its more like doing national service- something that is compulsary in most countries of the world. Except this world is even more democratic then ours so you have the choice of doing it or not.
Forum Lurker said:
In book economy is free capitalism without interferance from gov't. It seems civilians have similar rights as today only they can't vote.
Forum Lurker said:
I think it's when Rico is in officer school one of his teacher touches on subject why only vets can vote. It isn't due to their mental ability but due to the fact that they are willing to lay their lives on the line.
Although the book seems to imply a rather libertarian, laissez-faire society as mentioned, I would tend to agree with Forum Lurker on education opportunities. I think the veteran citizens would create something of a meritocracy for themselves, the non-citizens receiving the laissez-faire or benign neglect.
Heinlein's book, Heinlein's universe. If he says that a self selected class can refrain from voting themselves money from the public purse, who am I to disagree?wkwillis said:
Lenin thought so to and wrote about how the Bolsheviks wouldn't be corrupt because they had fought for the revolution and purged the self seeking opportunists.
We know how that turned out.
The difference is that the self-selection process is much, much more rigorous. If, and it's a tremendously large if, that process can remain completely free of corruption, then Heinlein's plan would actually work, for the most part. I would still believe that a centrally-planned economy would arise; part of this is simply because soldiers, above all, know the importance of logistics, and would be utterly loathe to leave the single most vital part of a nation to the whim of free trade.