To restore lost glory

Xen

Banned
One of the more popular What if's from World War II is what if Spain allied with the Nazi's in World War II, followed closely by what if Turkey allied with the Nazi's in World War II. This timeline focuses on what if both of them allied with the Nazi's in World War II.

To get Spain involved we have to get rid of Franco, well say that Emilio Mola begins to believe Franco is not to be trusted and arranges for him to be killed in early 1937. Mola goes on to become the President of Spain.

The Nazi victories over France and Poland stunned the world, and struck fear in those who might oppose Germany, now all that remained was Britain. Hitler met with the leaders of Spain and Turkey in Munich for a series of confrences, also in attendence is Benito Mussolini, and occaisonally the Japanese ambassador to Germany. The powers share one common trait, all at one time had mighty empires that had been lost through World War I (Germany and Turkey) or over the passage of time (Spain and Italy). After two weeks of meetings an agreement was reached tying the powers together in an alliance.

Each power agreed to help the others achieve their goals as the major powers of the world. To help persuade Turkey, Hitler used his influence over France to give control of Syria and Lebanon back to the Turks, with a promise of uniting all the Turkic speaking peoples as a large Asian/Middle Eastern Empire.

Spain was promised Gibraltar, colonies in Africa, and a reformation of the Spanish Empire in Latin America.

The details of the meeting were kept secret from the world. When asked what about the Soviet Union and the United States? Hitler was dismissive, what could they do against such an alliance. Hitler reinforced his belief the Soviets would fall quickly once attacked, and Britain would soon join them and together the combined powers would overtake the US.

Both countries took the bait, hook, line and sinker by declaring war on Britain in early autumn 1940, the promise of restoring lost glory seemed like a dream, in due time their nations would once again dominate the world. Britain now stood alone, but defiant in its fight against a powerful enemy and its formidable allies.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Addenda

You often have good ideas Lonnie. Can I point out the weaknesses in this one so you can simply rewrite it a little better ?

- Italy has not lost any part of her empire

- Spain would neither wish nor see it as realistic in any way to regain S America

- Syria and Lebanon are not Turkic. Turkey may well not want (all of) them

I am not sure Britain would be worried by the addition of Spain and Turkey, to be honest, though I am not saying their effects would be negigible - the loss of Gibraltar would certainly be a problem, but absent any other concern and Britain could theoretically run the Med out of Alexandria with Cyprus and Malta as outlying bastions

It would certainly make for an interesting other strategic reality !

Grey Wolf

Xen said:
One of the more popular What if's from World War II is what if Spain allied with the Nazi's in World War II, followed closely by what if Turkey allied with the Nazi's in World War II. This timeline focuses on what if both of them allied with the Nazi's in World War II.

To get Spain involved we have to get rid of Franco, well say that Emilio Mola begins to believe Franco is not to be trusted and arranges for him to be killed in early 1937. Mola goes on to become the President of Spain.

The Nazi victories over France and Poland stunned the world, and struck fear in those who might oppose Germany, now all that remained was Britain. Hitler met with the leaders of Spain and Turkey in Munich for a series of confrences, also in attendence is Benito Mussolini, and occaisonally the Japanese ambassador to Germany. The powers share one common trait, all at one time had mighty empires that had been lost through World War I (Germany and Turkey) or over the passage of time (Spain and Italy). After two weeks of meetings an agreement was reached tying the powers together in an alliance.

Each power agreed to help the others achieve their goals as the major powers of the world. To help persuade Turkey, Hitler used his influence over France to give control of Syria and Lebanon back to the Turks, with a promise of uniting all the Turkic speaking peoples as a large Asian/Middle Eastern Empire.

Spain was promised Gibraltar, colonies in Africa, and a reformation of the Spanish Empire in Latin America.

The details of the meeting were kept secret from the world. When asked what about the Soviet Union and the United States? Hitler was dismissive, what could they do against such an alliance. Hitler reinforced his belief the Soviets would fall quickly once attacked, and Britain would soon join them and together the combined powers would overtake the US.

Both countries took the bait, hook, line and sinker by declaring war on Britain in early autumn 1940, the promise of restoring lost glory seemed like a dream, in due time their nations would once again dominate the world. Britain now stood alone, but defiant in its fight against a powerful enemy and its formidable allies.
 

Xen

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
You often have good ideas Lonnie. Can I point out the weaknesses in this one so you can simply rewrite it a little better ?

- Italy has not lost any part of her empire

I see the confusion *LOL* I was refering to the Roman Empire, Mussolini was very keen on pointing out that he wished to restore Italy to the glory of the Roman Empire.

Grey Wolf said:
- Spain would neither wish nor see it as realistic in any way to regain S America

To true! Lets just say Mola is begining to get a bit delusional at this point in his life. He's been hanging out with Hitler too much, and now is thinking along the same wacky line Adolf was.

Grey Wolf said:
- Syria and Lebanon are not Turkic. Turkey may well not want (all of) them

Yeah they're not Turkic, but I seem to recall something about Turkey wanting to keep them after WWI. I could be wrong, but it would be a good start at reclaiming its former Empire.

[
Grey Wolf said:
I am not sure Britain would be worried by the addition of Spain and Turkey, to be honest, though I am not saying their effects would be negigible - the loss of Gibraltar would certainly be a problem, but absent any other concern and Britain could theoretically run the Med out of Alexandria with Cyprus and Malta as outlying bastions

It would certainly make for an interesting other strategic reality !

Grey Wolf

Yeah they're a bit weak, and going one on one with Britain would likely get stomped into nothingness its the opening up of more fronts Britain wouldn't like. Turkey would likely invade Iraq, and if they have Syria they would invade Jordan and Palestine too. Spain will give Italy a nice little boost and hit Gibraltar. In general their entry would just be a pain in the butt.
 
Turkey

Turkey had categorically, and without reservation, renounced all claims to all former Ottoman territories. The only thing they wanted was Hatay, which Mustafa Kemal was able to obtain from France through negotiation, and perhaps Mosul, which the British had "stolen" from Turkey, first by violating the armistice to occupy it, and then disallowing the plebicite agreed to that would have resulted in the region returning to Turkey.

In any case, recovery of Mosul would not have been seen as worth entering the war for, as Turkey was strictly neutralist, although leaning toward the Allies - after the fall of Greece, contact with Britain was no longer possible so Turkey had to be more scrupulous in her neutrality.

I don't see many realistic ways for Turkey to join the Axis; the only one that comes to mind is Stalin tries to intimidate Turkey into handing over border territories, forcing the Turks to turn to Hitler to avoid invasion, and that's the only one that would give you a Turkey motivated to fight.

The results would be a big problem for Russia, which besides having another enemy on her border, would be open to another front, and one that threatens her critical oil resources at that.

Coupled with Spain, which would result in the loss of Gibraltar, the British would likely lose control of the Med.
 

Xen

Banned
Regardless of what happened in OTL, Turkey and Spain are involved as allies of Germany and Italy. Thats why this is Alternate History. If the leader of Turkey at the time wouldnt have done it, go back sometime in the 1930s and change the leader to one who would, surely during this era it wouldnt be too hard to find a politician who wanted to recreate the glory of the Ottoman Empire, maybe one of the young Turks or a sympathizer.

It had been a year since the fall of France and a difficult one for Britain. Gibraltar was now occupied by Spain, the Mediterranean was prowled by axis ships and submarines making it difficult for the British to resupply its troops fighting in North Africa. The combined alliance of Spain, Italy, Turkey and a detachment of Germans were taking its toll on the British in Egypt, the only secure means of supply the defenders of Egypt had came from the Pacific and the Red Sea. The Turks invasion of Iraq opened a new front and put further strain on London. Finally when Germany and Turkey invaded the Soviet Union in June, Britain welcomed their new allies with open arms.

In fear the Turks would cease Soviet oil fields the United States began supplying giant reserves of oil to the Communist country. Soviet defenses failed time and again against the German onslaught, but faired somewhat better against the Turks in the Caucasas. Turkey gained the early momentum and like their Nazi allies had mixed reactions to the territory they invaded. Georgian's welcomed them as liberators, while Armenians remembered the tales of the Genocide by the Turks fiercly resisted the invaders. In Azerbaijan the Turks met little reistance and were cheered in the streets. Turkey's advancement continued north into Chechnia and along the Black Sea where they were finally stopped by the Soviet Army, determined to keep Turkey and Germany from linking up and blocking Russia's access to the Black Sea. The war on the Caucasius front came to a bloody stalemate.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 bringing the United States into the war. Germany declared war shortly after, followed by Spain, and Italy. Meanwhile Turkey was reluctant to add yet another powerful enemy to its list but finally gave in to Nazi demands on December 21, the US responded on December 22 with a declaration of war.

American troops began to arrive in England in January 1942 and in Egypt and Iraq that Spring. Unfortunatley Germany continued to advance into Soviet territory taking the Crimea that July (turning it over to Turkey in September 1942).

The US and UK allies launched Operation Gymnast in July 1942. The invasion of Morocco was met with token resistence but was quickly defeated after a couple weeks of fighting. As was becoming evident in Egypt the Spanish proved they didnt have the capabilities of fighting both the British and the American's, the Italians nor Turks faired much better against the alliance, and the war in North Africa was begining to shift in favor of the allies, leading Germany to send more battalions to fight in Libya and Egypt. Now Morocco was under allied influence the Nazi's invaded Vichy France and sent troops reserved for the Eastern front to Spain to reinforce the Spanish army incase of allied invasion. Hitler put a hold on the final solution and began shipping Jews to Spain to be used as slave labor in building the Spanish Atlantic wall. Jewish slaves worked around the clock and lived in very poor concentration camps, thousands would die by years end from the lack of food, apprioate rest and medical attention, diseases were quite common and deadly in the labor camps.

1942 came to a close with the United States and United Kingdom begining their Operation Supercharge in North Africa. One theater of the war was quickly coming to a close, with Roosevelt looked anxiously of starting another and getting a foothold in mainland Europe.
 

Xen

Banned
The allies received a major morale boost in the early months of 1943 when the Germans surredored at Stalingrad. Likewise the Turks suffering from defeat at Tuapse began to withdraw back to the Caucasus Mountains.

On the western front things were looking up, the British Intelligence agency, MI6 fooled Hitler into thinking that Portugal was in negotiations with President Roosevelt and the British Ambassador in Washington to allow the allies passage into Spain. Salazar denied these charges, but Hitler had heard enough, Spanish and German troops were pulled from their defensive strongholds to invade Portugal. The allies used this opportunity to invade Spain during Operation Sharkbait. Learning of the invasion, Hitler ordered Rommel to drive the allies back into the sea.

Royal Marines liberated Gibraltar in a fierce three day battle with Spanish regulars. The Americans and Poles invaded the Valencian Community while the British and Canadians established a beachhead in Andalusia. Meanwhile the Portugese eagerly accepted British and American support in fighting off the invasion. The British soon opened up a beachhead in A Coruna. The American's steamrolled east taking Barcelona and moving north. The media found its hero in the President's cousin and the son of a former President. Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. had bravely led his men into battle in Valencia, and led the charge in Barcelona becoming a national hero, ironically like his father it was against the Spanish. Two days after the Battle of Barcelona ended General Roosevelt had a mild heart attack and was taken out of combat duty. The Canadians and British liberated Madrid on May 17, and the Americans took Bilbao on May 23. With no way to escape, and cut off from reinforcements and supplies the Germans surredored on May 28, followed by the Spanish Government on June 2. Rommel was taken as a Prisoner of War, now confined to the Tower of London guarded by British troops. Other than minimal resistence, the allies had secured a quick victory over an over extended and war weary Spain. Returning to active service, Theodore Roosevelt, Jr was promoted to Lt General and named the allied Governor of Spain. The allies were quick to exploit the Jewish Labor Camps in Spain as Hitler's plans for the future. For the Jewish victims the sight of the Union Jack and Old Glory was a blessing, the British and Americans gave them food, and medical attention.

Franklin Roosevelt wanted to invade France next, but Churchill thought it was still too early and an invasion would certainly fail. Wanting to keep the positive momentum going Churchill and Roosevelt agreed on the invasion of Sicily. Which begins on the 9 of July.

Shortly after the allies took Sicily, Charles de Gualle is killed in Algeris by a Nazi agent. Command of the Free French fell to Henri Giraud. The allied invasion of Italy continues the same as OTL.

The Turks suffer another defeat at Grozny and at Sokhumi, the Soviet Army is becoming too much to bare, and the Americans and British are gaining ground in Iraq and Syria taking Baghdad and Damascus.

Finally the Russians break through the Turkish lines at T'bilisi on September 2 and quickly advance into mainland Turkey virtually unopposed. The Russian advance causes a major ripple in the military and the US and British find themselves in Turkey proper, the first city falling is Iskendrun the western allies and the Soviets begin a race to Ankara.

With Italy and Spain now under allied occupation, and Turkey quickly collapsing, Germany's list of allies grew weaker. The Soviets were quickly advancing on the eastern front, the United States and Britain were threatening to invade France from the Pyrenees, most of the German General's knew the war was now a lost cause and hoped to talk Hitler into negotiating a truce with the allies and withdrawing back to the borders of Germany, Hitler however refused believing Germany just needed to take a tactical retreat.
 

Xen

Banned
Soviet troops entered the Turkish capital of Ankara on the 10 of February 1944. The Turkish government refusing to give up fled to Istanbul proclaiming it as the new capital, and setting up one of the greatest battles of the war.

British and Free French forces take Corsica in a week long campaign. The Free French government moved to the island setting up its headquarters in Ajaccio.

In May 1944 controlled most of the Anatolia Peninsula crossed Bosporus and captured the city of Sariyer. The Soviets advanced quickly through Thrace quickly surrounding the ancient city. One of the greatest and most legendary battles of the war began on May 28, 1944 when the Soviets attacked the city. The Battle of Istanbul ended ironically on June 5, 1944 the same day the western allies entered Rome. Though the Turkish defenders fought bravely the Soviets overwhelmed their defenses and took the city. 491 years after taking the city from the Byzantines, the Turks lost it to the Russians, whom it has been said is the heir of the Byzantines.

The day after the liberation of Rome and Constantinople the western allies landed in France around the port city of Calais. Once again the British Intelligence fooled Hitler. Believing the United States was going to launch a major invasion from Spain, and join the Free French and invade Nice from Corsica while the British and Canadians were to invade the Normandy beaches. Hitler received a major surprise when the news of the Americans and British landing at and taking Calais reached him.

With Germany scrambling its defenses from Normandy to meet the allies at Calais, a second seaborne invasion was launched on June 8. Once again the allies were successful. A third front in France was opened on June 9 when the allies advanced from Spain.

After success in the Battle of Istanbul, Stalin set his sights on yet another historic and legendary city so much so it became his obsession. With Thrace now under Soviet occupation, Stalin ordered the invasion of Greece, he wanted Athens. Stalins obsession with Greece and Athens caused strain between the Soviet Premeir and Winston Churchill (to a lesser extint President Roosevelt).

The allies advanced through France very quickly, stopping just outside of Paris to let the Free French enter the city first. Weather by design or coincidence Paris was liberated on July 14.

In the east the Soviets entered Athens on July 27 causing further strain between the Soviets and the western allies. With Paris now liberated and the Germans retreating from France, the US and UK began to focus eastward. Allied paratroopers would be dropped on cities in the lowlands in one of the most massive airborn campaigns of the war. British and Polish paratroopers were dropped in and around Brussels in Belgium and the Americans and Canadians were dropped in and around Amsterdam, both airdrops came in the early morning hours of August 2. With the failed assassination of Hitler only weeks a way, and the seemingly unstoppable allied forces defeat was obvious to almost everyone in Germany except the Fuhrer.



So how's this World War II looking? Thoughts?
 

Xen

Banned
Soviet troops begin their Balkans campaign attacking Romania from the north and marching up Yugoslavia and Bulgaria in the South. Sofia fell to the Soviets on August 29 and Bucharest on August 30. The fight is now pushing closer and closer to the German fatherland with the Soviets taking the Baltic states.

The Polish Home Army unfortunatley surrendored on October 2 marking an end to the Warsaw Uprising. As the winter began to set in the war slowed. The US fought the battle of the Bulge from December 16-27 successfully holding off the Germans. The Day that battle ended the Soviets began to beseige Budapest.

The Soviet Union liberated Warsaw from the Nazis in late January 1945, just weeks before the Constantinople Conference attended by President Roosevelt, Premeir Stalin and Prime Minister Churchill. The official agreements of the conference were similiar to OTL Yalta Conference.

President Roosevelt died on April 12, 1945, Vice President James F Byrnes was sworn in as President. The war continued in Europe leaving behind a wake of death and destruction until V-E Day ended the war in Europe on May 7.

The allies divided Germany amongst themselves into four sectos, like wise Berlin and Vienna were divided into four sectors. In exchange for recognizing the Soviets annexing Thrace, the western allies claimed western Germany to the Elbe River, Bohemia and Austria.

Stalin is furious the allies took so much of Germany so he can have Constantinople (as it was again called) he refused to declare war on Japan. The allies finally achieved V-J day on the 1 of November 1945 when the allies invaded Korea. President Byrnes at first refused to allow Japan to surrender earlier as long as they kept their Emperor. James Forrestal broke the log-jam by suggesting they should agree to the condition by way of a counter-offer with a wording more acceptable to the U.S. The final wording was vague enough to be acceptable to Allied proponents of unconditional surrender and also to the Japanese, who would not surrender unless they could keep their emperor.

With World War II now over, peace seemed to return, however the rifts between East and West were beginning to grow. Stalin demanded he receive the southern half of Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and part of Korea as promised at Constantinople and Postdam. The allies rejected saying Stalin didnt live up to his end of the bargain and had no claim to anything. World War III was feared would soon follow World War II, fortunatley the first cold battle of the cold war ended with a shot being fired. The foreign ministers of the US, Britain, France and Soviet Union met in Vienna to avoid another war. A compromise was reached allowing the Soviets to have the Sakhalin island and the return of their naval base lost in the Russo-Japanese War, but they had to give up claim to Korea and the Kuril Islands. The US had the upperhand over the Soviets being the only power having Nuclear Weapons. The Soviets accepted. Stalin was much to concerned about Russifying Thrace and Constantinople. The Turkish residents there were forced to live on Anatolia, or had simply vanished into a Soviet Gulag in Siberia. Russia had an empty city to colonize, and finally a warm water port. Communist governments was installed throughout eastern Europe including in Soviet occupied Greece and Turkey. For the first time in centuries Turkey had a new flag (seen below)

Turks.gif
 

Xen

Banned
I will post the flags of the post war order when I get home and get my better program going. The Turkish flag is basically the flag of the communist party, I just took the yellow stripe off.
 

Xen

Banned
Post war maps and flags

This is the map of post war Europe and the division of Germany

Bright red is the Soviet Sphere of Germany, blue is the British sphere, teal is the French sphere and the light green is the American sphere.

The dark Green represents the countries favoring the American Superpower, while the orange represents those with Communist governments, Yellow is neutral.

The brown is the part of eastern Prussia annexed directly into Poland, while the pink are the territories annexed into Soviet Union including Thrace SSR

easterneurope.jpg
 
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Xen

Banned
sorry I didnt catch that it was too big, had to go shrink it


While Im at it heres the flag of Communist Greece

RedGreece.jpg
 

Xen

Banned
Ok now here is a map of post war Anatolia, to explain a little, the Socialist Democratic Republic of Turkey is bright Red, Kurd SSR (part of the Soviet Union) is in the orange, Armenia SSR is in the pink and the USSR is in the maroon.

Other countries seen there include Cyprus (purple), Syria is blue, Lebanon (barely seen is a shade of blue) Iraq is dark green, and Iran is jump in your face green

turkey_east_pol_2002.jpg
 

Xen

Banned
Mikey said:
Nice job. But would Turky really allow most of their eastern frontier taken away so easily?

Question is after losing World War II, and being occupied by the Soviet Union, one of two superpowers, would Turkey have a choice? Turkey like the rest of eastern Europe is going to have to listen to what the USSR dictates and shut up about it.

Really Turkey is larger than that picture shows, Anatolia is big and they didn't lose as much as it seems.
 

Xen

Banned
The chill of the cold war swept across the globe no where was it more played out than in China. Stalin knew the importance of a Communist victory pumped money and supplies to assure Mao's victory. President Byrnes on the other hand attempted to prop up Kai-shek. Time and again, Mao proved superior to his counter part until he forced him off mainland China to Taiwan in 1950. The first serious conflict of the cold war had produced a communist victory with Mao declaring the Peoples Republic of China.

The United States experienced another round of the Red Scare in the post war years as it scrambled to oppose the Communists. Its success in western Europe was astounding with the Marshall Plan helping post war Europe.

The Marshall Plan

COUNTRY Total Grants Loans
Total for all countries $14,625.8 $12,920.7 $1,705.1
Austria 677.8 677.8 --
Bohemia 225.1 140.0 85.0
Denmark 273.0 239.7 33.3
France 2,713.6 2,488.0 225.6
Germany, West 1,390.6 1,173.7 216.9
Iceland 29.3 24.0 5.3
Ireland 147.5 19.3 128.2
Italy 1,508.8 1,413.2 95.6
Netherlands (East Indies) 1,083.5 916.8 166.7
Portugal 757.9 721.1 36.8
Spain 1,300.0 1,100.0 200.0
Sweden 107.3 86.9 20.4
United Kingdom 3,189.8 2,805.0 384.8

Western Europe was unstable following the war, Civil War threatened to tear France into two, with Spain having little peace in a decade and the communist moving to cease power there. The United States and Great Britain examined the options available to them, the allies agreed to support the European Monarchists return to power. Elaborate crowning ceremonies were held in Paris, Madrid, Vienna and Bonn.

In Paris the Duke of Guise was crowned King Henri VI, restoring the Orleans branch to the throne of France.

In Madrid, the third oldest son of Alfonso XIII was crowned King Juan I.

In Bonn, West Germany Louis Ferdinand was crowned as the new Kaiser of the Kingdom of Germany.

In Vienna, the son of the last Emperor of Austria was crowned Otto II (is that numbering right)

King Umberto II of Italy was forced to abdicate in favor of his 9 year old son who became Victor Emmanuel IV. The boys mother was to be the regent until his 18th birthday.

The monarchy would be a symbol of the division of Europe between east and west. Only Bohemia, Switzerland, Ireland, Iceland and Portugal having Republican governments in the west.

In the United States the Civil Rights Movement got a major boost with the desegregation of the US Armed Forces and Major League Baseball in 1947. Desegregating these two major American institutions would prove cruxial to the upcoming Civil Rights campaign.

Republican Thomas Dewey won the 1948 campaing over President Byrnes, had the Democrats not been split into threee camps, it is probably Byrnes would have won. Former VP Henry Wallace ran on the Progressive ticket, with Strom Thurmond running on the Dixiecrat ticket against the incumbent President. Due to Byrnes' popularity Dewey hit the campaign trails hard, and won the Presidency.

President Byrnes recognized Israel just hours after that state declared independence leading to the Israeli-Arab War of 1948. Palestine had become the primary place for European Jews to immigrate after World War II, Hitler had generated much sympathy for the Jews with the Holocaust claiming 2,500,000, and more forced to do labor for the Nazis and Nationalists in Spain, living in horrid conditions. Israel would amaze the world by defeating its neighbors in spite of having to face overwhelming odds, even entering the western half of Jerusalem. The war ended with a cease fire, and the Arab states exiling its Jewish population, who found homes in the new zionist state.

Finally the Cold War's coldest moment exploded in Siberia in 1949 when the Soviet Union successfully detonated a nuclear weapon. Now the two superpowers possessed the most deadly weapons known to man. That same year, NATO was formed as a mutual defense pact for Western Europe, the United States and Canada. NATO's headquarters was built in Barcelona.

The world as it appeared on January 1, 1950

Countries in blue are the democratic nations of the world, countries in Red are communist, teal countries are partial democracies, Yellow countries are one party states, green countries are military governments, and purple countries are the colonies of Europe (as a note the US has mandate over Spanish Sahara). I got this idea from Matthew Whites website, http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/govt1900.htm
 

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