Hapsburg Superpower

The title says it all. With a post-Napoleonic POD, how could the Hapsburg Empire rise to become a genuine superpower by 2004? By superpower, I mean economic and military superiority to all but other superpowers, a large and not-too-discontented Continental population and resource base, plus the ability to project power globally, as well as nukes, ICBMs or some equivalent, a modestly successful (or better) space program, the works. Essentially give it all the power enjoyed by either the US or USSR ca. 1960 or later.

It can be called the Austrian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Austro-Hungarian-Slavic Empire, or by whatever name you choose, provided it is a direct, lineal descendent of the Hapsburg Empire in 1815, and remains ruled by the Hapsburg monarchy.

What do y'all think?

Well, that would be difficult

Perhaps if the empire got some of the south german states as well, with them integrated. That would put prussia on its own, while france would still have an allicne with the empire.

Chris

Close - at least in general terms

One of my earlier ATL deal with a Habsburg Superpower, but unfortunately I have 1700 as the POD - no war of Spanish Succession and Habsburg power remains paramount in Spain and Central Europe. However, like so many rough ATLs I really should clean it up (extensively) before posting it. Perhaps what I see here will give me a boost.

I have been wondering lately what would have happened if Francis-Karl, Franz-Josef's father, wasn't skipped over in the line of succession in 1848. I really don't know much about him. Another possibility would be Napoleon II, the Duke of Reichstadt, he's a Habsburg. Perhaps if he had lived until 1848 he could have capitalized upon his name in Revolutionary Vienna. Wouldn't that be a kicker - his rise to power at the expense of Metternich's?

I think it could happen

Assuming Austria is on the winning side of WW I, and the monacrchy reforms itself into a confederation (simmilar to the USSR) and it is ruled by a constutional monarchy. In WW II........Austria and Germany ( ruled by the Kaiser) are on the winning side against Russia, England and France. Germany and Austria would be the most powerful countries in Europe.......maybe they have a split over the post war map.........and a Cold War develops.........is any of this possible?

Maybe have a Holy Roman empire consisting of Germany, Austria, and nothern Italy be formed, and lpaced under the control of a Hasburg emperor.

Modesitt Jr.'s Of Tangible Ghosts and its two follow ups are light AH. Most of Europe is a facist, Hapsburg Empire. IIRC the HE has a military base in Basra.

And thats "light" AH?

you'll have to see for yourself. The political AH stuff is pretty much just background. A lot of stuff one finds out thru newspapers that the protagonist reads. That's what I meant by light AH.

Perhaps if hapsburg empire becomes a melting pot of different cultures beginning the 17th century, they might have a chance to be a great power.

I have some difficulty in beliving that the melting pot could become a great power (america's main population is all from similer roots). As I said, the best way to do that would be to have no one who might want to do the empire in.

So, have the empire absorg south germany after Napolean. That removes germany from history, while keeping the french on side.

Chris

We'd need some different kids born, someone 'better' for the Austrians who reforms and all that and also someone 'better' for Germany who doesn't alienate Britain and keeps them at least neutral.

Or maybe French victory in the Franco-Prussian war...

I see Germany as the key here whichever way you go about it.

Leej said:

We'd need some different kids born, someone 'better' for the Austrians who reforms and all that and also someone 'better' for Germany who doesn't alienate Britain and keeps them at least neutral.

Or maybe French victory in the Franco-Prussian war...

I see Germany as the key here whichever way you go about it.

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Hmmm - interesting!

We could have Mack do a couple of things slightly different at Ulm in 1805 and suddenly it's Napoleon who is trapped. Napoleonic wars end almost before they have started, and the Habsburgs consolidate as the primary power of the continent. The Prussians realise that this will be the end of their superpower dreams, but are decisively beaten in 1807. In Russia Alexander really can't decide what to do. He's sure he's the saviour of mankind, but who shall he save mankind from? By 1812 he has decided that the Austrians and their willing British supporters are the scum of the earth, and launches big offensive westwards. The Holy Union created by Metternich reacts swiftly however, and 100’s of thousands of Russian soldiers are lost due to bad logistics and enemy action. Not at least the numerous Habsburg Streifkorps wreck havoc in the slow moving Russian columns. Alexander is displaced and Russia is decimated by loosing a lot of land in the west (Baltic and Ukraine) and a more introvert Czar is installed. Russia turns into a much more moderately sized power that basically stays away from European affairs, but still have ambitions in the Caucasus (to the worry of mainly the Ottomans but also the British Empire – will the Russians eventually reach India?).

Nationalism never gets the boost it did during the Napoleonic wars, and basically this means that the Habsburg have some extra decades to get reforms in place. Metternich initially opposes any change and the generally good times, economically and culturally, support him (no drain from Napoleonic wars). But by mid 19th century there is a major rebellion in Hungary and in protestant Northern Germany. The two incidents are not coordinated but by happening at the same time the Empire and its Holy Union are severely strained. In the end the Hungarians are crushed but the Holy Union looses its power over North Germany, France and Netherlands and is replaced by a Federal Monarchy containing the OTL Habsburg Empire plus Bavaria. In effect the Hungarian nobility have lost its special position, and instead the different nationalities are closer to equal rights. In the North a protestant league incl. North/West Germany, Netherlands, Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Finland is formed. Around 1860 the French, lead by a descendant of Napoleon interfere in Habsburg matters by supporting Polish, Bavarian and Italian dissidents, and it comes to war in which France is again decisively beaten. The Protestant League and the British intermediate and make sure the Habsburgs are not rolling over the continent and basically it ends in status quo, but also in France paying large indemnities.

Industrialisation now starts to roll, and the Habsburg Empire is in the front, especially in Galicia, Bohemia, Austria, N. Italy and Bavaria. The other great powers are UK, Protestant League and France, but Russia is slowly gaining weight. By early 20th century a French-Russian-Spanish-Ottoman alliance is formed and it comes to war over some dynastic questions regarding the Kingdom of Naples. The British and Protestant League are to busy watching each other to bother about the other continentals. The war turns out to very bloody on all fronts. By 1916 the Habsburgs are close to collapsing, but are saved by intervention from the Protestant League, UK and USA. The French, Russians and Ottomans try an all-out offensive before the reinforcements arrive, but fail on all fronts and the regimes in all countries collapse. At the peace conference the Habsburgs are forced by the intervening power to grant Italy and Poland independence (the last mainly chewed out of Ukraine), but gain both land and influence in the Balkans. The British and Protestant League use the opportunity to dismember the Ottoman Empire while they are at it. In France, Italy, Spain and Russia civil war follows between reds and whites, but in all places the white win and quickly develops into what we in OTL would call fascist regimes. USA turns isolationist and Turkey wisely decide to stay out of any European turmoil.

In the 20’s and 30’s an international fascist league of France, Italy, Spain, Russia and Japan emerges, and openly cry for revenge over the old regimes. The Habsurgs have alliances with UK and the Protestant League but on 14th of October 1940 the Fascist League attack into what is in OTL Rumania (Ploesti oilfields) and from Italy into Austria and with diversionary offensives from France into the Protestant League. In the Atlantic and Med. British and Protestant shipping and bases are attacked (taking Gibraltar) and in the Far East the Japanese fall over British and Protestant League possessions. The idea is to take out Austria while winter prohibits the Protestant League from undertaking major offensives into Russia or France and simultaneously engage the British and Protestants as many places as possible. The plan almost succeeds, as Ploesti is reached, but the Russian Army then suffers of its old problem of insufficient logistics and a counteroffensive supported by British/Protestant League Expeditionary Force thrashes the Russian Army. In the Far East the Japanese suffer from similar problems as their army forces landed in Malaya and Protestant East India finds themselves cut off by British and Protestant naval forces supported by land based air (the Protestant navy is about the size of RN). By Spring of 1941 the Protestant League start a major offensive into Russia from the Baltic, and in two months Moscow has fallen and the Russians driven out of Habsburg possessions. In Russia the dictator and leader of the “Motherland Steel party” a Georgian called “the Steel Man” suffers the fate of the last Czar and the leaders in France and Italy experience fates similar to OTL Mussolini. This ends the war for the Habsburgs who again have come out successfully of a war.

In 1945 it is announced that a team under the Viennese scientist Dr. Albert Einstein has developed a new and extremely powerful weapon, which has been successfully tested in the Transylvanian Mountains. The world is shocked by film footage showing an entire mountain being blown/melted into atoms. Kaiser Otto announces that the next attacker will suffer a fate similar to the Transylvanian mountain…

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Redbeard said:

Hmmm - interesting!

<fascinating TL snipped>

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

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I like it!

CIVILISATION II Hapsburg empire

Just like to report that I once played a game of CIV II where I had the Hapsburg empire, which was my own civ based on the Russians, and managed to get a spaceship into orbit by 1976 while remaining the most dominat civ on the planet.

To answer this qn more directly, WI the Ottoman Empire still somehow posed a grave threat to the security of the West by the end of the 19th C, instead of being the 'sick man of Europe' ? Could the Hapsburg empire have continued to maintain its status as a European superpower while still being required to guard the frontier against the Turk in the Balkans ? Also, I agree that the rise of nationalism among the subject non-German ppls of the A-H empire (Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Ruthenes, Slovaks, Slovenes, Serbs, Croats, etc) would need to be undercut during the crucial periods of 1848 and the leadup period to WWI. How could the Hapsburgs then realistically have enculturated a sense of joint identity among the disparate mass of subject ppls within the empire ?

Alternate answer: Franz Joseph dies in 1909. The heir, Franz Ferdinand, stages a military coup to break the constitutional and parliamentary logjam ( and incidentally to break the morgantic marriage pact imposed on him by his family). Empire reorganized as a federation of peoples over howls from Germans and Hungarians. He does not waste money building a useless big ship navy. Instead spends it on schooling, industrialization and a bigger army -
more units, more officers, more fortifications (Russian and Italian borders), more artillery, more machine guns. Wholesale purge of the upper officer corps and replacement by younger more progressive types. Major outmigration of diehard ethnic nationalists - German to Germany, the rest to the New World. Major inmigration of Jews ( the wife of the Morgantic marriage is a part jewess), Ukranians, Poles, Orthodox Christians from Balkans, Russia and Turkey, attracted by economic opportunity and a more inclusive state than the one they reside in. By 1914 Savajero happens slightly differently. His wife dies and he is merely wounded. An enraged Franz Ferdinand vows to make Serbia pay. WWI results. However in this TL the Austrians army stands on the defensive against the Russians in good trenches backed by concrete border fortifications and slaughters the Russians in the opening border battles. This means that the initial Hapsburg patriotism that historically happened isn't wasted in a botched invasion of Poland. The extra two armies compared to OTL are sufficient to crush Serbia and Montenegro in 1914. Pursuit carries through Albania. Inertia keeps the Austrian army mainly on the defensive. The compromise peace after the French mutinies and the collapse of Russia in mid-late 1917 give AH a big slice of Poland, the western Ukraine, all of Rumania except a small slice to Bulgaria, the bulkf of modern Yugoslavia and Albania and a big chunk of northern Italy after Caparetto. Democracy is still restricted because of national tensions and the military and crown still have very seperate budgets that parliament cannot touch ( think Japan in the 1930's). WWII does not happen. Ethnic cleansing is something that happens in the Mid East or Africa not in civilized Europe. Without WWII the European Empires survive in the 3rd world. Mil tech is 30-40 years behind current. Civilan tech is 10-20 years behind. The empires are restive but still European dominated with a native educated class resentfully ruling under their European masters. Central Europe is MUCH stronger than in OTL. Russia and Japan are MUCH weaker. China is VERY weak. It is the plaything of various Japanese, Maoist and Nationalist semi-regulars. The western world stands united for the white race, European civilization and against the Red menace.

Melvin Loh said:

Just like to report that I once played a game of CIV II where I had the Hapsburg empire, which was my own civ based on the Russians, and managed to get a spaceship into orbit by 1976 while remaining the most dominat civ on the planet.

To answer this qn more directly, WI the Ottoman Empire still somehow posed a grave threat to the security of the West by the end of the 19th C, instead of being the 'sick man of Europe' ? Could the Hapsburg empire have continued to maintain its status as a European superpower while still being required to guard the frontier against the Turk in the Balkans ? Also, I agree that the rise of nationalism among the subject non-German ppls of the A-H empire (Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Ruthenes, Slovaks, Slovenes, Serbs, Croats, etc) would need to be undercut during the crucial periods of 1848 and the leadup period to WWI. How could the Hapsburgs then realistically have enculturated a sense of joint identity among the disparate mass of subject ppls within the empire ?

Click to expand...

I don't think nations distribute roles among each other like: "you take care of the Ottomans, and we leave you alone!" As a nation you are basically on your own, and if you're not strong enough the rest will plunder your dead body (and please don't mention "international law", that triggers my naivety allergy!).

But I think the role of the Hungarians is crucial for the survival of the Habsburgs. First the Hungarian rebellion in 1848 needed heavy Russian intervention to be crushed - that much took out the pride and self confidence of the Habsburg house. Second the Hungarian demand for "home rule" meant a lot of other (slavic) nations not being allowed room for identity or home rule, but on the contrary were left to strict Hungarian rule. I believe the Empire would have been more than happy to grant more room to the Slavic nations, but basically was too weak to enforce this on the Hungarian noblemen running the show. The Austria-Hungary double monarchy was only created in 1867, a year after Austria had lost a major war to Prussia and eight years after an indecisive but bloody war against France (Solferino).

If the Hungarian rebellion can be crushed effectively in 1848, could be by the main Austrian Army not being simultanesly engaged in Italy, then I guess it would have been easier to implement reforms later on. Next if Austria isn't defeated in 1866 (the Prussian victory had many elements of gamble and luck) I doubt the Hungarian succeed in repeating their very eleveted role in the OTL 1867 constitution. That forms an important precondition for reforms giving room to the Slavs.

I also think we need considder that Slavic nationalism wasn't born until relatively late in 19th century, and that it only grew outside narrow intellectual circles during WWI. One of my former employees (retired now) is of Polish origin and very interested in history. He claims that the Poles were never exposed to a more tolerant, liberal and prosperity creating regime than the Habsburg until very late 20th century (the inter war Polish government was a pretty harsh fascist like regime)! I think he has an important point, and that our present view of of pre WWI Slavic nationalism is much determined by interwar propaganda formed to legitimize the new Slavic states created by WWI.

Finally the Habsburg Empire had very high growth rates (economy/industry) prior to WWI - only matched by Russia. If no WWI or only a short one, I guess both the Habsburgs and the Romanovs would have been very hard to displace.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Greetings and salutations. I was inspired by this and the preceding to make a map: it's the first time I've been using this forum, so my apologies if it doesn't come through on the first try.

Bruce

Redbeard said:

Hmmm - interesting!

SNIP

In the 20’s and 30’s an international fascist league of France, Italy, Spain, Russia and Japan emerges, and openly cry for revenge over the old regimes. The Habsurgs have alliances with UK and the Protestant League but on 14th of October 1940 the Fascist League attack into what is in OTL Rumania (Ploesti oilfields) and from Italy into Austria and with diversionary offensives from France into the Protestant League. In the Atlantic and Med. British and Protestant shipping and bases are attacked (taking Gibraltar) and in the Far East the Japanese fall over British and Protestant League possessions. The idea is to take out Austria while winter prohibits the Protestant League from undertaking major offensives into Russia or France and simultaneously engage the British and Protestants as many places as possible. The plan almost succeeds, as Ploesti is reached, but the Russian Army then suffers of its old problem of insufficient logistics and a counteroffensive supported by British/Protestant League Expeditionary Force thrashes the Russian Army. In the Far East the Japanese suffer from similar problems as their army forces landed in Malaya and Protestant East India finds themselves cut off by British and Protestant naval forces supported by land based air (the Protestant navy is about the size of RN). By Spring of 1941 the Protestant League start a major offensive into Russia from the Baltic, and in two months Moscow has fallen and the Russians driven out of Habsburg possessions. In Russia the dictator and leader of the “Motherland Steel party” a Georgian called “the Steel Man” suffers the fate of the last Czar and the leaders in France and Italy experience fates similar to OTL Mussolini. This ends the war for the Habsburgs who again have come out successfully of a war.

In 1945 it is announced that a team under the Viennese scientist Dr. Albert Einstein has developed a new and extremely powerful weapon, which has been successfully tested in the Transylvanian Mountains. The world is shocked by film footage showing an entire mountain being blown/melted into atoms. Kaiser Otto announces that the next attacker will suffer a fate similar to the Transylvanian mountain…

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Click to expand...

Hi Bruce

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your effort with the map. I just love such maps, but how did you do it? Is there a site where you can find blank maps (without borders)?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Lots and lots of image googling with "outline map" and "europe" as search terms. Couldn't give you the specific page I found this one on, sorry: I used microsoft 98 paint, and it's rather finicky about the sort of image files it will allow me to color in. This one I found after downloading 7 or 8 others that didn't work at all, and I'm still not too happy with it. (Ireland, for instance, looks pretty crappily drawn).

Redbeard said:

I also think we need considder that Slavic nationalism wasn't born until relatively late in 19th century, and that it only grew outside narrow intellectual circles during WWI. One of my former employees (retired now) is of Polish origin and very interested in history. He claims that the Poles were never exposed to a more tolerant, liberal and prosperity creating regime than the Habsburg until very late 20th century (the inter war Polish government was a pretty harsh fascist like regime)! I think he has an important point, and that our present view of of pre WWI Slavic nationalism is much determined by interwar propaganda formed to legitimize the new Slavic states created by WWI.

Click to expand...

Bright day Steffen Redbeard
I apologize but I have to disagree with you on that matter, at least for Czechs. The Czech National Revival is divided into three parts 1770-1813, 1813-1830, 1830-1848 where by 1848 only very small number of idealistic students revolted, majority tried to act mature and supported Habsburgs as they did again Austrian-Prussian war when we have been offered separate Kingdom of Bohemia by Prussians. And :ahem: propaganda, I would be the last to call my Founding Fathers saints but it still not very nice. Poland was kingdom with long tradition and modern Czech Republic is almost exactly same area Premyslid princes ruled and it was always Kingdom of Bohemia. And btw Czecho-Slovakia was separated due to will of politicians not people, most agree about that and I am Czecho-Slovak and can see things from both sides. It was fun few years ago to watch hockey championship- whoever would win I would still be their "nationality".
May all your days be bright.

EDIT: Plus there was Polish uprising in 1830.