Nestorian Japan

According to some of my research on Nestorian Christianity, the Empress of Japan in 956 AD was a Nestorian. One would think that others besides the Empress had converted (these things rarely occur in a vacuum). However, Nestorianism in Japan, like in China, ultimately died out.

WI it was more successful and the majority of people in Japan converted to the Nestorian rite of Christianity by 1000 AD or so?
 
Seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Assuming it does, I can't imagine it would look to much like Christianity by the time they link up with Christendom proper. Of course, it would certainly put some 'oomph' behind any Prester John type legends that arise.

More plausible would be a small, persisting minority of Nestorian Christians, which would still be interesting. Who knows, maybe some enterprising Nestorian pilgrim decides to take a 'shortcut' and sail west across the Pacific towards Holy Land at one point or another.
 
President Ledyard said:
Assuming it does, I can't imagine it would look to much like Christianity by the time they link up with Christendom proper. Of course, it would certainly put some 'oomph' behind any Prester John type legends that arise.

More plausible would be a small, persisting minority of Nestorian Christians, which would still be interesting. Who knows, maybe some enterprising Nestorian pilgrim decides to take a 'shortcut' and sail west across the Pacific towards Holy Land at one point or another.

True, a surviving Nestorian minority would be more likely. A few score thousand "hidden Christians" survived the Shogunate persecutions to come out into the open during the Meiji Restoration, and those were descended from converts made by Catholic missionaries during the 1400s.

Hmmm...are you saying that if Nestorian Christianity became the dominant faith of Japan, it would ultimately stop being Christianity? What might it look like? I imagine it would incorporate Shinto and Buddhist bits of some kind, plus there might be some Byzantine-style Caesaropapism with the Emperor (if he can't be a god anymore, perhaps a prophet?).
 

Diamond

Banned
I'd think a Nestorian Japan would be a province of the Chinese Empire. In order for Nestorianism to really establish itself in Japan, it would need a foothold in China, somewhere for missionaries to 'launch' themselves from. That means a significant Nestorian presence in China. If you assume that, it almost follows that cultural ties will grow as well, especially as the threat of the Mongols and assorted peoples begins to grow - China will be looking for allies, and a Japan with the same religion seems ideal, especially if China has had a century or two to send across diplomats and the odd army or two. If Japan can help the Chinese and the Korean kingdoms to fend off the northern invaders, you might never have a Mongolian dynasty on the Chinese throne.

Or, alternatively, if the Chinese are less than pleasant about incorporating their 'Nestorian brothers' into China proper, you could have an antagonistic Japan freely allying with the Mongols to stomp China...

And this doesn't even touch on what the impact of the religion itself will be on the world at large. When the Mongols roll into Europe and the mideast (if they still do), they might be militant Nestorian hordes...
 
According to some of my reading, the Nestorians did have a presence in China. However, it was largely among the steppe peoples in the borderlands, not among the Chinese themselves, and that was one reason why it fizzled.
 
Matt Quinn said:
True, a surviving Nestorian minority would be more likely. A few score thousand "hidden Christians" survived the Shogunate persecutions to come out into the open during the Meiji Restoration, and those were descended from converts made by Catholic missionaries during the 1400s.

Hmmm...are you saying that if Nestorian Christianity became the dominant faith of Japan, it would ultimately stop being Christianity? What might it look like? I imagine it would incorporate Shinto and Buddhist bits of some kind, plus there might be some Byzantine-style Caesaropapism with the Emperor (if he can't be a god anymore, perhaps a prophet?).


Well, Christianity does tend to adapt itself to local cultures-- i.e. look at the 'compromises' the Jesuits made in China. NEstorianism was more flexible than most-- so by the time the 1500s roll round and Catholic missionaries reach China, Japanese Nestorian Christianity could have gone off quite a ways on its own as far as doctrine or practice. Certainly to a Jesuit, Dominican, or post-Trent Catholic, it probably wouldn't look much like their concept of "Christianity" at all, even if it still was.

For that matter, the Emperor could have wound up as a sort of reincarnated Son of God or something, or that the paraclete descends on whoever holds the job.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
IIRC there is/was a sort of legend that Prester John was Genghis Khan's grandfather. IE he was the leader of the Nestorian Christians mentioned by Matt Quinn's post.

I have seen posts on here about the success of the mission sent by the Pope after he became aware that the Mongols had expressed interest in Christianity. One or another Pontiff sent a fairly large delegation, hoping to convert Mongols who had sent ambassadors to all the world's major religious leaders, but only two survived the trip. The Mongols felt insulted and so became Islamic.
Whatever the truth of that, an interesting WI might derive from Christian Mongols teaming with Europeans to crush Islam between them.

I don't think a Nestorian Japan does require a Nestorian China, or ever a large Nestorian presence in China. Throughout its history Japan has usually been a cultural vassal of China almost totally by choice and not compulsion. (e.g. most good examples ot Tang Chinese architecture are in Japan, and so popular there that most see them as the traditional Japanese style.)

What is/was Nestorianism like? Could it have teamed with Chan and Tao, to give us Zen Christianity?
 
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NapoleonXIV said:
IIRC there is/was a sort of legend that Prester John was Genghis Khan's grandfather. IE he was the leader of the Nestorian Christians mentioned by Matt Quinn's post.

I have seen posts on here about the success of the mission sent by the Pope after he became aware that the Mongols had expressed interest in Christianity. One or another Pontiff sent a fairly large delegation, hoping to convert Mongols who had sent ambassadors to all the world's major religious leaders, but only two survived the trip. The Mongols felt insulted and so became Islamic.
Whatever the truth of that, an interesting WI might derive from Christian Mongols teaming with Europeans to crush Islam between them.

I don't think a Nestorian Japan does require a Nestorian China, or ever a large Nestorian presence in China. Throughout its history Japan has usually been a cultural vassal of China almost totally by choice and not compulsion. (e.g. most good examples ot Tang Chinese architecture are in Japan, and so popular there that most see them as the traditional Japanese style.)

What is/was Nestorianism like? Could it have teamed with Chan and Tao, to give us Zen Christianity?

Nestorianism was one of the early Christological debates, arguments about the nature of Jesus Christ. Nestorius was, oddly enough, the Patriarch of Constantinople for a while.... his argument ran along the lines of Christ being a man who was possessed by the holy spirit, rather than the official doctrine that he was one being which had simultaneous divine and human natures. He was condemnded at the Council of Ephesus in the 430s or so. Compared to Arianism or Monophysitism, Nestorianism was kind of an 'also-ran' as far as christian theology goes. Other than doctrine like that, it doesn't seem to have been _that_ different from other strains of early christianity, to judge from what few things are left about them, though less tied up in the church hierarchies and so on. You might be able to make a case for a slightly more overt Zoroastrian influence, seeing as lots of Nestorians were to be found in the Sassanid lands.... making general statements is almost impossible, though, since Nestorian communities out to the East tended to be small, very widely-scattered, and pretty autochthonous.
 
The Lurker said:
Nestorianism was one of the early Christological debates, arguments about the nature of Jesus Christ. Nestorius was, oddly enough, the Patriarch of Constantinople for a while.... his argument ran along the lines of Christ being a man who was possessed by the holy spirit, rather than the official doctrine that he was one being which had simultaneous divine and human natures. He was condemnded at the Council of Ephesus in the 430s or so. Compared to Arianism or Monophysitism, Nestorianism was kind of an 'also-ran' as far as christian theology goes. Other than doctrine like that, it doesn't seem to have been _that_ different from other strains of early christianity, to judge from what few things are left about them, though less tied up in the church hierarchies and so on. You might be able to make a case for a slightly more overt Zoroastrian influence, seeing as lots of Nestorians were to be found in the Sassanid lands.... making general statements is almost impossible, though, since Nestorian communities out to the East tended to be small, very widely-scattered, and pretty autochthonous.

As I understand it, the history behind the theological issue was a bit obscured. IIRC, some would say it wasn't clear if it was a outright heresy, a disagreement/schism, or even just a misunderstanding. Then again, I haven't done as much research, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
In reference to whether a Nestorian Japan requres a Nestorian China.

I wouldn't say it was absolutly neccassary - you could see a Japanese identity emerging which defines itself more oppositionaly to China, with its national religion as a touchstone of that. If it is indeed that case that the members of the ruling class were converting, you could see the trickle down effect you saw in Britain OTL, were the missionaries converted the kings who them imposed it on the majoriry pagan population.
 
david3565 said:
As I understand it, the history behind the theological issue was a bit obscured. IIRC, some would say it wasn't clear if it was a outright heresy, a disagreement/schism, or even just a misunderstanding. Then again, I haven't done as much research, so take that with a grain of salt.

My freshman year, I found the e-book "By Foot to China," which was written by a Presbyterian minister about the Nestorian Church. He did a lot of linguistic research and it turns out that Nestorious never actually taught Jesus was a man possessed by God (which I believe the Unity Church teaches today)--it was all a big mistake.
 
Alratan said:
In reference to whether a Nestorian Japan requres a Nestorian China.

I wouldn't say it was absolutly neccassary - you could see a Japanese identity emerging which defines itself more oppositionaly to China, with its national religion as a touchstone of that. If it is indeed that case that the members of the ruling class were converting, you could see the trickle down effect you saw in Britain OTL, were the missionaries converted the kings who them imposed it on the majoriry pagan population.

Possibly.

However, which missionaries are we talking about? I know Augustine (not THE Augustine, but another one) converted the king of Kent, but missionaries from Ireland were active in northern Britain earlier.

If the Emperor and his clique become Nestorians, how likely is it that there'd be opposition? Among the Germanic peoples top-down stuff proved tricky b/c the kings ruled with the consent of their warriors (proto-feudalism); would the Japanese warrior class meekly accept the new religion or could there be a full-blown war?
 
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