Ancient Iberian civilisation

What if an powerful indigenous urbanised civilisation developed in ancient Iberia, prior to the Phoenicians. I'm picking the southwest where rich silver (?) mines were located. The people of that area I believe already had sea-trade links to Britain even before the Phoenicians arrived, but a bigger civilisation would most probably have even stronger contacts.

The idea of an ancient bronze age Iberian kingdom has already been incorporated into fiction in Stirling's ISOT series (Tartessos), but that kingdom only grew from the contacts from the future in a fantasy scenario.
 
I think the Phoenicians expanded into the western Mediterranean only after about 1000BC (hassles with the Assyrians back in their home states), even though I've read somewhere that they supposedly founded Gades/Cadiz as early as 1100BC. So any previous urbanised civilisation in Iberia would've had to have developed independently, though maybe there could've been Minoan or Mycenean trading contacts. (but it's a long way to travel from the eastern Mediterranean)
 
BRT said:
I think the Phoenicians expanded into the western Mediterranean only after about 1000BC (hassles with the Assyrians back in their home states), even though I've read somewhere that they supposedly founded Gades/Cadiz as early as 1100BC. So any previous urbanised civilisation in Iberia would've had to have developed independently, though maybe there could've been Minoan or Mycenean trading contacts. (but it's a long way to travel from the eastern Mediterranean)

The Iberian peninsula was the major source of tin during the bronze age. The Mycenaeans definitely had trading contacts with them, and quite probably the proto-Phoenicians as well. The Mycenaeans and proto-Phoenicians did not establish colonies there, however...at least none have been found so far.
 
Recently they had a TV special on how the Atlantis legend was based on a Spanish civilization wiped out by flooding. It's by the Pillars of Hercules, which is where Atlantis is supposed to be (well, outside the Pillars).

WI those floods never happened?
 
Atlantis is a distorted memory of Minoan Crete and the effects of the Theta alias Santorini volcano explosion.

An Iberian empire as described would need writing for official records and to prove afterwards that the empire existed:-
- Parchment. Not invented until AD.
- Paper. The skill to make it was not brought to Europe until the Middle Ages.
- Dried palm tree leaves. Only where suitable palm trees grow, e.g. India.
- Papyrus. Only within easy trading reach of Egypt to import blank papyrus.
- Clay tablets. Only where the climate is dry enough to preserve them.

Linear A and B Crete was literate using a combination of these: clay tablets for temporary records only, as Crete has wet winters; and papyrus for long-term storage but it was scarce as it had to be imported from Egypt.
 
Last edited:
Anthony Appleyard said:
An Iberian empire as described would need writing for official records and to prove afterwards that the empire existed:-
- Parchment. Not invented until AD.
- Paper. The skill to make it was not brought to Europe until the Middle Ages.
- Dried palm tree leaves. Only where suitable palm trees grow, e.g. India.
- Papyrus. Only within easy trading reach of Egypt to import blank papyrus.
- Clay tablets. Only where the climate is dry enough to preserve them.

Linear A and B Crete was literate using a combination of these: clay tablets for temporary records pnly, as Crete has wet winters; and papyrus for long-term storage but it was scarce as it had to be imported from Egypt.

Clay tablets are as permanent as bricks when baked, and are not susceptable to moisture when so treated. It was the common practice to bake the tablets for long-term preservation (indeed, many tablets found at Ugarit, for example, were found in the very ovens where they were being baked for permanent storage in the royal archives). Any civilization, anywhere, could make use of clay tablets as a medium for writing, and in fact civilizations all over the place did so. Even Egypt, which had papyrus, used clay tablets inscribed with Akkadian cuneiform for diplomacy during the Bronze Age. So the lack of suitable writing material should not be an impediment to the development of civilization. Lack of a system of writing definitely would be, but writing material is everywhere underfoot...literally.
 
It's quite probable the southwest Guadalqavir (sp?) Valley had a semi-urbanised civilsation in the bronze-age prior to the Phoenicians, but there are no records. Stirling in ISOT had Tartessos in such a state (towns, not cities, and a small tribal kingdom rather than a big kingdom) in 1250BC when the Nantucketeers arrived. Though it might be a strech to have a real-life character like Isketerol, who (in the book) had visited both Britain and Egypt. Remember that, as far as we know, in 1250BC there was no urbanised civilisation between the Pillars of Hercules and Mycenean Greece. (OK I believe there was a small Mycenean colony in Sicily) Italy (pre-Etruscan) apparently consisted of just tribal chiefdoms and villages.
 
This is interesting, even i'f there were small trading post by either Seafearing nations, how would the kingdom hold of The Carthagians,Romans,moors and Arabs. Somebody should definatley develop this idea
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
robertp6165 said:
Clay tablets are as permanent as bricks when baked, and are not susceptable to moisture when so treated. It was the common practice to bake the tablets for long-term preservation (indeed, many tablets found at Ugarit, for example, were found in the very ovens where they were being baked for permanent storage in the royal archives). Any civilization, anywhere, could make use of clay tablets as a medium for writing, and in fact civilizations all over the place did so. Even Egypt, which had papyrus, used clay tablets inscribed with Akkadian cuneiform for diplomacy during the Bronze Age. So the lack of suitable writing material should not be an impediment to the development of civilization. Lack of a system of writing definitely would be, but writing material is everywhere underfoot...literally.

You've also got pottery shards which are very important for the study of ancient Greece, and I think just about anyone can make a pot and smash it up

I would also assume its possible to independently create a more paper-like system without having to import the know how from anywhere. I assume the Mayans for example didn't get it from any non-indigineous people

Grey Wolf
 
I belive that mankind is very industious in creating devices. If writing is asked, it will be done. bark was used for writing in some areas of the world. In iberia cork could be a good material.
 
Phaeton said:
This is interesting, even i'f there were small trading post by either Seafearing nations, how would the kingdom hold of The Carthagians,Romans,moors and Arabs. Somebody should definatley develop this idea

Maybe they could just use some of the money they got trading with other peoples, hire some mercenaries from inner the peninsula (maybe the predecessors of the celtiberians or the lusitanians).
 
Top