The Great War of 1937-1951-A Very Different WW2

The Great War of 1938-1951-A Very Different WW2

I have finally setteld on a PoD for my 'Earlier WW2' thread.

In early March, the Gremans invade Czechslovakia. After about a month of fighting, many Czech units surrender, and Czech becomes part of Germany. A combined Slovak/Soviet Army is able to hold off the Germans for a while, but finally are forced to surrender. How does this sound?
 
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Mikey said:
I have finally setteld on a PoD for my 'Earlier WW2' thread.

In early March, the Gremans invade Czechslovakia. After about a month of fighting, many Czech units surrender, and Czech becomes part of Germany. A combined Slovak/Soviet Army is able to hold off the Germans for a while, but finally are forced to surrender. How does this sound?

The Slovak may well surrender, but the Soviets will not. What about Poland, Austria and Hungary? The most likely development is that Poland and Hungary associate them like hyenas with the Nazis to dismember Czechoslovakia and hold off the Soviets; Austria can still rmain neutral, but its fate is sealed.
The simple presence of the Red Army in Czechoslovakia should garantee the most absolute Western neutrality (not to say sympathy for the Nazis) fro moment being.

Anyway, in 1937 the German Army wasn't probably in such a shape as to successfully overrun the Czech border fortresses in the Sudetenland. The only wa to achieve this was to unleash a opro-Nazi insurrection in those German-speaking border areas.
 
I've thought about the German army. No, it probally couldn't run through Czechslovakia with out help. Maybe a mutiny in the Czech portions of the army, and pro-fascist factions within Czechslovakia sabatoge the Russian and Slovak military.

I'm thinking that Poland and Hungary will remain nuetral for now. And that was suppose to be 'The Great War of 1938-1952: A Very DIfferent WW 2', so Austria would be part of Germany. Hungary is lening towards the Nazis, and so is Poland.
 
I like the idea of a more adroit Germany manipulating Czechoslovakia and establlishing a puppet regime. If done well, this could keep the Chamberlain out of Munich,and keep the English from committing themselves for a bit.

The Soviet Union, sensing that Germany may start to absorb more of Central and Eastern Europe into a German Economic Zone, could then attack from the East.

If the conflict begins to spill out into other areas, such as Poland, then Germany offers assistance, and etc, etc.

The problem with this approach is that if Germany engages the Soviets to soon, they may not turn to the West, and England and France may see it as an Eastern European War.
 
The incident in Czechoslovakia is after the anshluss with Austria, basileus. In OTL, Poland was a pro-axis neutral due to its non-agression pact with Germany, and would be unlikely to get involved in the war at this time beyond selling war materiel. Hungary is more likely to get involved in any conflict, as it had already signed an agreement with Germany.
 
I now have a pretty set idea about how to go about this, with a lot of Norman's idea.

Aptril 13th, 1938: The Czechslovakian Nazi Party, or the Iron Cross Party, gains a majority in the legislature of Czechslovakia.

April 14th: Fearing the Iron Cross party, the President of Czechslovakia dissolves that legislature session. The Iron Cross's version of the SS, the Grey Shirts, and regular civilans, riot in the major cities.

Aptril 16th: The Iron Cross Party Leader, Gustav Reinfeld, requets German assistance. Hitler mobilizes several brigades of 'volunteer' infantry and armor, and begin to move into Czechslovakia. The USSR condems the invasion, but does nothing about it.

April 20th: The Deutsch Freiwillige Gruppe, or German Volunteer Group, arrives in Pargue. Several pro-Iron Cross military units have also clinged to the DFG. The DFG begins to 'restore' order.

Aptril 24th: The DFG and Grey Shirts initate a coup against the existing Czech government, and they succede. Gustave Reinfeld becomes president of the Republic of Czechslovakia. He agrees to ceede the Sudetenland to Germany. Also, production of LT-35 and the TNHP (Pzkpfw 35(t) and 38(t)) is doubled. Half will go to Germany, while the rest will go the Czech army.

April 30th: Stalin feels threatened by a pro-German Czechslovakia, and a German-leaning Poland adn Hungary, so he orders the Red army to draw up plans to invade Poland.
*Note: Stalin had only extremley minor purges. Most of the Army's high command is still intact.

May 3rd: The Red Army prepares for the invasion of Poland. German spies discover this, and the DFG in Czechslovakia is recalled. The 1st DFG (Division Size) and the 2nd DFG (Divsision sized) are sent to Poland at the request of Poland.

How it that so far?
 
This looks very good. Do the Nazis tone down their anti-slavic ethnic stance (having more close slavic allies should have some impact)?
 
Yeah, they probally will have a less anti-Slavic stance than OTL. I'm also thinking about Hitler threatens all the Jewish scientiest that leave to stay, so they can work on Hitler's A-bomb project. ANother thing that would be interesting: the Germans at the end of the war, uses Jews from the concentartion camps as cannon fodder.
 
May 11th: The Red Army invades Poland. The France, Britian, and the United States all condem it, but do nothing about it. The 1st and 2nd DFG's are mobilized to the front immediatley.

May 22nd: The Red Army has already advanced about 75 miles. This is slower than originally planed, thanks to the German DFG. The Polish refuse to retreat, creating for massive body counts.
The Luftwaffe forms the Falke Legion (Falcon Legion) to fight in Poland. They are shipped out in a week.

May 29th: The Falke Legion arrives in Poland. Hitler sends more forces to aide the Poles. The combined Polish/German army regroups 29 miles in front of Warsaw to defend it. Several Polish and German units are sent to out-flank the Russians in the south.

June 7th: The Russians begin to besiege Warsaw. The Germans and Poles make the Soviets fight for every square inch of land. The Soviets reach the border with East Prussia. The Armeegruppe Sud (Army Group South) has initiated a counter-offensive

June 19th: Armeegruppe Sud's advance has been stalled three miles from Warsaw. But Armeegruppe Ost has started another counterattack from East Prussia.

June 30th: The Soviets unleash a new offensive, named Operation Switchblade. An army of nearly 350,000 men and 1,500 tanks are used. The Armeegruppe Ost is pushed back across the East Prussian border, and Amreegruppe Sud has been cut in half.

July 2nd: The Soviets cut off the rest of Armeegruppe Sud. Southern East Prussia is taken by the Soviets.

July 11th: Warsaw is finally captured. Nearly 35,000 Poles and 3,000 Germans surrender. The rest of the Polish Army is in a full scale route. Hitler orders that Armeegruppe Ost make a defensive line in southern East Prussia. The German portion of Armeegruppe Nord is ordered to return to Germany.

July 26th: The remaining Polish army surrenders. Southern Poland (the area that fought the hardest) is organized into an occupation zone. The People's Socialist Republic of Poland is established in Warsaw. A quarter of a million Soviet soldiers remain in Poland to keep the peace.
 
Very nice so far.
On another note, I think that the Baltic states and Finland may be very pro-German in this point. They feared the Russians, and Lithuania also has claims on Polish-controlled lands. Therefore, they may be willing to fight against the Red army. Not just after Poland fell, of course. But maybe in the future.
 
Good idea. I've been thinking having Finland and Russia fight a war here in a few months, and the Baltic states request German help. I also think that a Polish government-in-exile will be pro-German, because Britian and France didn't help them, and the Germans fought alongside with the Poles, and lost territory because of it.

July 31st: Combat expierence in Poland has given everyone new data on armored warfare. The Russians have accelereated their T-34 program, hping to have it operational by mid-1940. Also, the German Pzkpfw IV (the mulit-turreted Neubaufahrzeug OTL) has been accelerated. Production will commence a month before the T-34. Production of Pzkpfw III has begun.

August 4th: Czechslovakia, Finland, Italy, Hungary, and the Baltic states all sign the Munich Pact (Tripartie Agreement), and form the Axis.

August 13th: Czechslovakia is partitioned between Germany (Czech protion) and the rest, witch will form the Republic of Slovakia.

August 15th: Britian, France, and Belgium form the Alliance of Europe.

Agust 19th: Romania signs the Munich Pact, as Turkey begins to lean towards the Axis.
 
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My last post ends Part One of my 'The Great War of 1938-1952). Now onto Part Two.

August 19th, 1938: Production of the Pzkpfw III has begun, along with production of the of the heavier Sd.Kfz. 234 Lynx and Sd.Kfz. 233 armored cars.

August 21st: Stalin oreders that the Red Army prepare for an invasion of Finland. Crack veteran units-totaling around 200,000-and an estimated 30,000 soldiers and 2,500 tanks.

August 22nd: Estonia is annexed by the Soviet Union. 25,000 soldiers and 500 tanks cross the border before the small Estonian army and about 1,500 German "volunteers" are able to respond, and are destroyed or captured.

August 23rd: 500 Soviet soldiers are killed in a roadside ambush in Estonia, and in Poland, an uprising in Warsaw begins.

August 27th: The Warsaw Uprsing is put down. 10,000 Poles in Warsaw alone are massacered. An estimated 50,000 more are killed, and 30,000 are sent to Siberia.

September 13th: 230,000 Soviet soldiers and 2,800 tanks corss into Finland. The German High Command convinces Hitler not to declare war on Soviet Union, because Germany is not ready yet. Instead, 10,000 "volunteers" from all over the Axis are sent to Finland.

To be continued...
 
September 15th: The Sweedish Nazi Party or, Nationalsocialistiska Arbetarpartiet, gains control of Sweeden's legislature and presidencey. A young pro-Fascist prince, Adolf Gustav, is appointed king, and given complete power. Adolf Gustav is crowned King Oscar III.

September 16th: At the Battle of Lahti, the Finnish Army repulses the Red Army. The Red and Finnish Armies fight each other to a standstill, but most of southern Finland remains in Soviet hands.

September 25th: The Pkfpfw IV begins pre-production testing. King Oscar demands that he be crowned King Oscar II of Sweeden and Norway, but Norway does not agree.

September 26th: The Royal Sweedish Army invades Norway, and meet massive success early. Using expiremental paratroppers, Sweedish paratroppers sieze Oslo.

Septemner 30th: Oslo is captured by regular Sweedish forces. Parts of northern Norway are seeded to Sweeden, and the rest of Norway will be left alone.

November 1st: Sweeden signs the Munich Compact, making her an Axis power.

November 13th: A hand-ful of T-34 tanks begin to appear along the Kouvola Line in Finland. Sweeden prepares to send forces into Finland to aide a fellow Axis power.

November 25th: The Spainish Civil War ends as Franco seizes Madrid. Spain becomes a Fascist state, and is asked to sign the Munich Treaty. Instead, Franco declines the offer.

November 26th: Royalist forces under Gustavus V attack Stockholm. A great portion of the Sweedish army is loyal to the Fascist forces. The Royalist are defeated at the Battle of Uppsala.

November 27th: Stalin orders that Sweeden be invaded to aide the Royalist. The Sweedish Communist Party enters into the Royalist Colalition.

November 30th: Ivalo is captured by Russian forces. The Sweedish Army on its way to Finland is recalled and sent up north.

December 11th: The Russians do not advance any father. Gustavus V is killed by a stroke, and the Royalist Colalition goes into caos. The Communist declare the Soviet Socialist Republic of Sweeden in the north, but will be absorbed by the Soviet Union.

December 14th: Germany begins to mobilize its forces, with Pzkpfw III and a hand-full of Pzkpfw IV, and moves into Sweeden. The other Axis powers too begin to mobilize forces.

December 17th: The Soviet Socialist Republic of Sweeden is invaded by Axis forces to protect Sweeden.

And so ends Part II.
Sweeden is invaded by way of Finland. Northern Finland has been captured by the Soviets for this occasion.
Flag of the Fascist Empire of Sweeden, from Flags of the World
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Flag of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Sweeden:
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Soviet Socialist Republic of Sweeden.JPG
 
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December 15th: Slowly, the Soviets invade Sweden, and the Axis declare war. The Allaince of Europe, now named the Entente, condems the Soviets, and tries to negotiate a peace.

December 20th: Despite the freezing cold, the Soviets advance quicly now. The hastily prepared Sweedish defenses are swamped, and sometimes, passed by quicly. The Sweedish Air Force's few premanent air bases are destroyed, but the mobile ones are not. Massive Soviet bombings leave Stockholm and other major Sweedish cities in ruins.

December 26th: The Axis units form a defensive line stretching from Vilhelmina in the north, down to Ornskoldsvik in the south. Many soldiers on both sides are dying from forstbite, and only a quarter of all airplanes are working.

January 9th, 1939: During the biggest air raid of the war, Stockholm is attacked by 500 Red Air Froce bombers. The German Luftwaffre downs about 125 of these bombers before they reach Stockholm.
At the Battle of Vilhelmia, the fighting is from house-to-house. The Soviets learn that tanks get stuck in city streets, and make perfect targets for anti-tank crews.

January 17th: At Umea, the Germans and Axis counterattack, and drive the Soviets back to Skelleftea, about 100 kilometers. There, the front line stalls until spring.

January 26th: The Luftwaffe begins to hit Soviet supply lines, and begins to disrput the flow of ammunition to soldiers.
The Red Air Force's bombing missions are now begging to stop due to high loss rate.

Febuary 11th: Hitler orders that the General Staff call up plans for the liberation of Poland and Finland.
In Finland, the Red Army makes one final push towards Helsinki, and make it to the outskirts of the city.

Febuary 14th: The Pzkpfw IV begins mass production, due to its accelerated program. In Helsinki, the Soviets are fighting building-to-building, and face stiff resistance. Once again, the infantry must go with out tanks, because the Soviet tanks get stuck. German Lynx armored cars are doing a lot of damage to the Red Army.

March 2nd: The Soviets begin to mobilize their forces into Romania with the Swedish and Finish fronts stalled. The Soviets begin to move Siberian-trained soldiers into the Finnish and Swedish fronts to renwe their offensives.

March 3rd: A train filled with 12,000 Siberian Soldiers is bombed by Luftwaffe bombers, and about 10,000 are killed.
 
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As you have this written it is only a question of time before the Allies begin to send forces to support Poland, who joins with the Soviets to make it a world war?
 
hey, this is only the begging. I think that to make the Alliance enter the war, Germany or Italy would have to invade an Alliance member. I'm thinking about expanding to Alliance to include Norway, Netherlands, Greece, and maybe Portugal.

Breif Description of the Great War
The Great War of 1938-1952 is acutal the general term given to a whole variety of different confilcts (the Polish War, the Sweedish-Norwegian War, the Pacific War, and the Americas War). The deadliest war of all time, battles were fought on every continent (yes, even the pengiuns took sides :D ), and millions died. If only ended when every major Alliance city exploded in a Nuclear hellfire.

Even then, the United States did not surrender to Germany. The American Armies in France, Greeece, and Turkey did not allow the German Wermacht to move into the countries to occupy them. In 1951, Berlin, Nurenburgh, Munich, and Rome exploded in nuclear hellfire when the US used its own version of the A4 (or the V2) rockets, the SSM-01 Hawkeye, tipped with nuclear warheads.

The A9/A10 Inetercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBM) were used in retaliation to these nucelar srikes in Germany. One struck Washington D.C., one hit New York City, and a third missed, and exploded in the ocean. The US was forced to surrender, and recall all military forces from Europe. The USAF recovered the A10 missile that splashed into the ocean, and developed the SSM-02 Valkyrie ICBM.
 
Puma, Lynx, A-Bombs

A lot of items are well thought our but others are flights of fancy I'm afraid.

Lynx and Puma were both introduced in 1943. It is hard for me to see them being moved up as early as 1938. The Germans tinkered a long time with the PzII to get a fast recon tank and in the interim encountered the failures of the D and E models.

The Germans getting Abombs before the US is highly problemetic. There are scenarios where the development of American nukes is slower--a Bronx Project if you will but gaseous diffusion U235 bombs should be ready to rock and roll by late 1947. The German programs ignored U235 and concentrated on reactor produced plutonium as the only way to develop a bomb. This leads to many questions about whether they could get this act together.

There is also the question of delivery system. First generation nukes were heavy--9,000# for Little Boy. A V2 would not get off the ground carrying one. The German fantasy ICBM would not either. Eventually they could build one that could I suppose but long range bombers like the USAF B-36 would be delivering them. Some would get shot down but with sorties at night at high altiude supported by ECM aircraft most would get through.

Use of Abombs against England would probably result in retaliatiory use of British anthrax bombs.
 
Lynx and Puma were both introduced in 1943. It is hard for me to see them being moved up as early as 1938. The Germans tinkered a long time with the PzII to get a fast recon tank and in the interim encountered the failures of the D and E models.
What were the exact problems with the Lynx (OTL Puma)? If it was a problem that could nt be fixed with an ATL, I'll just get differrent armored cars.

The Germans getting Abombs before the US is highly problemetic. There are scenarios where the development of American nukes is slower--a Bronx Project if you will but gaseous diffusion U235 bombs should be ready to rock and roll by late 1947. The German programs ignored U235 and concentrated on reactor produced plutonium as the only way to develop a bomb. This leads to many questions about whether they could get this act together.
But what if Germany some how still had its Jewish scientists? Would that affect the American and German bomb programs?

There is also the question of delivery system. First generation nukes were heavy--9,000# for Little Boy. A V2 would not get off the ground carrying one. The German fantasy ICBM would not either. Eventually they could build one that could I suppose but long range bombers like the USAF B-36 would be delivering them. Some would get shot down but with sorties at night at high altiude supported by ECM aircraft most would get through.
I think I'll have the Ameircan nukes delivered by a B-36, but how could a German nuke be delivered?

Use of Abombs against England would probably result in retaliatiory use of British anthrax bombs.
Never heard of them. Any were where I can find information about them?
 
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