Dutch Empire

My favorite country to build a timeline around has always been: A) the Netherlands, and B) (northern) Germany. However, I am always hampered by the problem that there are simply not enough Dutch people (nor was life bad enough in the Netherlands) to create a vast, colonizing empire. Instead, they always settle for an economic empire.

How can we combine my two favorite European regions, the Netherlands and northern Germany (say Hannover, Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein, and North-Rhine Westphalia), without having the British interfere too much....
 

Faeelin

Banned
I suspect that Charles's daughter has to marry the elector of the palatinate's son before 1477.
 
Faeelin said:
I suspect that Charles's daughter has to marry the elector of the palatinate's son before 1477.

I'm a little ignorant on this, so bear with me. By Charles, do you mean Charles the Bold (who died in 1477)? If so, that means that the daughter is Mary.

But, I'm probably wrong. Could you tell me exactly who you mean? LoL, I must sound really ignorant right about now...
 

Faeelin

Banned
No, you're right.

That assumes that charles still dies in 1477, which is possible.

You've then thrown european history way off but hey.
 
Hmm...yes it does. If I remember correctly, most, if not all, of the Hapsburgs (both Spanish and Austrian) were decendents of Charles the Bold. That would throw history WAY off if you eliminate them or put them in a different location.

How about in the mid-16th century? Calvinism was basically confined to modern-day Holland and Switzerland. Is there anyway it could spread east somewhat into OTL Lutheran lands? A religious bond between those German states and the Netherlands would almost certainly combine them, or at least make them closer. So, what if Calvinism had been more widespread? Any possibilities?
 
Burgundy or Pilsner?

Basically I could see two points that might work.

Burgundy survives and retains medium-power status post-1477. In the course of the 16th century it experiences its own Reformation, becomes Calvinist (if Calvin exists...) anmd increasingly finds its southern flanks impoverished and sidelined while the economic and political center of gravity shifts to Flanders and Holland. The trilingual (northern French dialects, Flemish-Dutch and Low German) state encompassing most of the Rhineland, the Saar, Moselle, Franche-Comté, the Netherlands, parts of Frisia, and modern Belgium is then just big enough to suistain a colonial Empire...

Or:

The Catholic troops are routed in the Battle of the White Mountain thanks to more decided Dutch and English support and fewer morons in command. Bohemia goes Calvinist, as do large swathes of Central Germany at the end of a savage nine-year war in which the Dutch Army of Prince Maurice of Nassau takes decisive part. Germany is religiously divided three ways: a Lutheran North and Northeast (Prussia, Northern Hanover, Frisia, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, Pomerania, and the Hanseatic cities) under Swedish hegemony, a Catholic South (Bavaria, Austria, Franconia, the Palatinate, and the border states to France) and a Calvinist Center (Hesse, the Rhineland, Brandenburg, Saxony - though I'm dubious about that last one). The South becomes the battleground between Austria (much weakened in the war, but still a serious power) and France whilwe the center orients itself more and more towards its hegemonial power, the Netherlands. A succession of dynastic marriages put Brandenburg, Brunswick and Hesse into personal union with the Netherlands (after some fiddling with succession laws). In the course of the 18th century, this patchwork is built into this ATL's German hegemon, governed from Amsterdam (no need for a 'king in Prussia' construct as the royal crown already exists outside the Empire). With the troop reservoir and enough continental muscle to keep the French off their back, the Dutch can exploit their colonial possibilities far more ruthlessly. Russia, meanwhile, becomes a Vasa client state and eventually disintegrates under the political weight of Poland and Sweden, leaving Central Asia and Siberia a colonial 'no-man's-land' until the 1800s, when Britain and Persia clash on the steppes and China faces redoats on the Amur frontier...

Admittedly, very unlikely. But I like it.
 
carlton_bach said:
Burgundy survives and retains medium-power status post-1477. In the course of the 16th century it experiences its own Reformation, becomes Calvinist (if Calvin exists...) anmd increasingly finds its southern flanks impoverished and sidelined while the economic and political center of gravity shifts to Flanders and Holland. The trilingual (northern French dialects, Flemish-Dutch and Low German) state encompassing most of the Rhineland, the Saar, Moselle, Franche-Comté, the Netherlands, parts of Frisia, and modern Belgium is then just big enough to suistain a colonial Empire...

Walter wanted a Dutch-North-German bloc, really, so Franche-comte is an encumbrance (as would be ducal Burgundy). What if Mary marries not Maximilian but a local candidate - a Palatine prince as faellin suggested if there is a suitable one (the Elector Philip "the Upright", b. 1448 and acc. 1476, would seem to be the candidate; anyone know when and who he married in OTL? His eldest son was born July 1478 so dad was probably married before 1477), Adolf of Gelders or Philip of Cleves-Ravenstein, both talked about as candidates for her hand in OTL. In the War of Succession after Charles' death, the Duchy goes to France and Franche-Comte to the Habsburgs, but the Cleves-Burgundy (or whoever) dynasty is allowed to hang on to the Netherlands as all powers prefer that to any of the big guys getting their hands on it.

The resulting Netherlandish state will be dominated at first by the wealthy and fractious Flemish towns. Seeing it as something of a de facto federal state rather than a pure feudal monarchy, and safely distant, Netherlandish rule is attractive to the Dithmarscher peasant communes of Holstein, who call in Netherlandish help for their war against the King of Denmark in 1500. In OTL they didn't need it, crushing the Danish royal forces at Hemmingstedt - http://www.ahnenforschung-sh.de/history/e/war1500.htm - but in this TL the war goes so well that the Netherlands conquers all Schleswig-Holstein.

Come the Reformation, they fill in the gaps by secularising the bishoprics of Bremen and Munster as vassals of the Netherlands crown - well, coronet, since they're not a kingdom but still a group of Imperial duchies and counties. And Ostfriesland, err, waves hands about vaguely, maybe gets bought from its Counts at some stage?

No Burgundian-Habsburg marriage so no Spanish rule so no revolt: how is this enlarged Netherlands going to develop?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Dutch on steroids!

Northern Germany in many ways formed its own cultural and economical entity until recent centuries, and not at least in the Hansa period. The Hansa in OTL was a rather loosely wound network of merchant ruled cities, as much competitors as allies, but I think it is possible to think up a scenario, where the Hansa network is either taken over by a political system (a consolidated Kalmar Union?) or itself “buys” a political system (more successful intervention in the 16th century Danish civil war). No matter who starts on top northern Germany has a good chance to become the major part of a Scandinavian/North German entity, and the step to involve Netherlands need not be long.

Netherlands in OTL intervened a lot in 15th to 17th century Scandinavian and North German politics, as well as being economically and culturally being closely connected. If imagining “the Dutch Party” in one of numerous wars/feuds having some good luck, the basis is laid for an alliance that easily could evolve into royal marriages and empire building etc. In any situation where a Scandinavian King position is vacant a good protestant house the like Oranje would a good bid. The other great powers, especially England and France, will not be happy to have the Dutch or anyone else controlling the entrance to the Baltic though, and both strength and diplomacy is need to keep it all together, but this could also be used as the “excuse” for this ending as not extending into Scandinavia. But anyway, the Dutch with a huge “hinterland” is nothing short of a terrifying opponent – the English and French may have met their superior!

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Also, WI the Dutch had been able to hold onto their vast colonial possessions from the 17th C onwards, such as New Amsterdam, Bahia, and Capetown, in addition to the East Indies, West Papua, Malaya, Antilles and Guiana, instead of having to concede these territorial possessions to other hungry European rivals ?
 
Walter_Kaufmann said:
My favorite country to build a timeline around has always been: A) the Netherlands, and B) (northern) Germany. However, I am always hampered by the problem that there are simply not enough Dutch people (nor was life bad enough in the Netherlands) to create a vast, colonizing empire. Instead, they always settle for an economic empire.

How can we combine my two favorite European regions, the Netherlands and northern Germany (say Hannover, Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein, and North-Rhine Westphalia), without having the British interfere too much....

I don't necessarily see how a large population is necessary to build an impressive colonial empire; the Dutch were able to handle the NEI, Belgium held the Congo, and look at the size of Portugal's empire. A few different wars (less of them with Britain) could have seen a Dutch empire with a holdings in N. America and India. If they had been able to hold onto Belgium, that would add a good bit of population. At the close of the Napoleonic wars, the conbined total was 6.5M as opposed to 12M for Britain, whereas France weighed in at 30M but fell far behind Britain in the colonial game.
 
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