Classical Greece survives to the present

Like the Egyptian thread, kinda. Keep Greece under native rule to the present. Parts can be conquered, but some parts must remain independent, and the whole of Greece should be independent today. To make things easier, you don't have to keep the Greek pantheon, you can go with Christianity or Islam (or something else). Also, to make things even easier, we'll count the Macedonians as Greeks, so we don't have to manage to figure out what to do with Alexander.

Have at it.
 
IIRC modern Greece has far stronger historical and traditional ties with Byzantium than classical Hellas, so unless we make an almighty shift sometime around 149 BC, we are looking at surviving Byzantium.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
carlton_bach said:
IIRC modern Greece has far stronger historical and traditional ties with Byzantium than classical Hellas, so unless we make an almighty shift sometime around 149 BC, we are looking at surviving Byzantium.
You betcha they do. From the archaeological perspective, Greece is divided up into a number of ephorates, and most regions have two: one for Byzantine Antiquities and another for everything else. As I understand it, the Byzantines get a lot more play in the history curriculum than any other period of Greek history.
 
carlton_bach said:
IIRC modern Greece has far stronger historical and traditional ties with Byzantium than classical Hellas, so unless we make an almighty shift sometime around 149 BC, we are looking at surviving Byzantium.
Romans, and therefore Byzantines, are foreign in my book, so we have to avoid them.

Really, this one's not too hard. You just have to avoid the Romans, Turks, and Nazis. They're the only ones (besides the Macedonians) who've conquered Greece.

So, weather the Romans, redirect the Turks, and the Nazis aren't likely to ever even occur.
 

Susano

Banned
Greece is screwed as soon as a capable empire arises nearby. A comet would have to hit rome or something.
Scotsts suggestion is good, too, but classic hllas is maked by poleis, and this cultrue would fade away with an athenian empire over time.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Romans, and therefore Byzantines, are foreign in my book, so we have to avoid them.

Really, this one's not too hard. You just have to avoid the Romans, Turks, and Nazis. They're the only ones (besides the Macedonians) who've conquered Greece.

So, weather the Romans, redirect the Turks, and the Nazis aren't likely to ever even occur.
Don't forget about the Italians. During undergrad I spent my summers excavating on the island of Corfu, much touted as the only part of modern Greece that had never been conquered by the Heathen Turk. Let me tell you, that island was crawling with the Lion of St. Mark. The Venetians were there for a long time, at least until the Brits expelled them, IIRC.

The first president of Greece, Ioannis Kapodistrias (aka Giovanni Capo d'Istria) was a Corfiote, as was Judas Iscariot.

As I understand it, Greece itself (at least, the area corresponding to modern Greece) went into severe decline after the Macedonians. Perhaps if Alexander had never set foot outside of Greece, but consolidated his father's empire. Perhaps Pausanias never assassinates Philip and Alexander remains a persona non grata with the Macedonian nobility. Of course, the Orient would never become Hellenized, but I think that there might have been a better chance of Greece maintaining its territorial integrity.
 
Howabout Alex loses a few battles, and only takes part of Persia. He consolidates the Empire, knocks Carthage and Rome down a bit. That might secure Greece.
 

Diamond

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Howabout Alex loses a few battles, and only takes part of Persia. He consolidates the Empire, knocks Carthage and Rome down a bit. That might secure Greece.

Weren't there Celtic attempts at invasion and/or settlement in Greece and the Balkans? If they occurred close to Alexander's time and are a little more costly to Greece (ie more Celts, I guess, than the smallish number of OTL), maybe Philip of Macedon and his son are too busy expanding north and west to worry about Persia and India?
 
Diamond said:
Weren't there Celtic attempts at invasion and/or settlement in Greece and the Balkans? If they occurred close to Alexander's time and are a little more costly to Greece (ie more Celts, I guess, than the smallish number of OTL), maybe Philip of Macedon and his son are too busy expanding north and west to worry about Persia and India?
Ohhh, Greco-Celtic...
 

Diamond

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Ohhh, Greco-Celtic...

No, I just meant that they might do better focusing their attention that direction instead of east. I didn't mean to imply a meging of cultures, although thats certainly possible...
 
Diamond said:
No, I just meant that they might do better focusing their attention that direction instead of east. I didn't mean to imply a meging of cultures, although thats certainly possible...
Well, I figured some of the Celtic culture would filter into the Greeks after getting conquered. Not much though, but a bit.
 
Alexander's Uncle set up a Italote League, of the greek cities in Italy. It fall apart after the Uncle was killed, Have him survice a few more years. When Alexander is conquering Greece, the League gets involved against Alex. After taking Greece, Alex moves into Italy, ending up in Sicily [S yra que].
This brings Alex into conflict with the Carthagians, & the Romans, After several battles the Carthagians & Greeks divide the Med, into East & West.

Greece holds the south & east coasts of Italy, Rome holds the Northwest Coast, Over the next couple centuries Rome moves north into Gaul and Germany while Greece moves into the Black Sea.

By 400 AD Rome controls most of what was the Western Empire plus Germany, minus Sicily & Naples. Greece holds most of the Eastern Empire, plus Crimea, minus Eygpt.

Under impact of the Huns, Goths, ect Rome loses Germany, and Greece loses the North Black Sea Territories. But by 1000 AD they had both recovered the lost Terriories
 
DuQuense said:
Alexander's Uncle set up a Italote League, of the greek cities in Italy. It fall apart after the Uncle was killed, Have him survice a few more years. When Alexander is conquering Greece, the League gets involved against Alex. After taking Greece, Alex moves into Italy, ending up in Sicily [S yra que].
This brings Alex into conflict with the Carthagians, & the Romans, After several battles the Carthagians & Greeks divide the Med, into East & West.

Greece holds the south & east coasts of Italy, Rome holds the Northwest Coast, Over the next couple centuries Rome moves north into Gaul and Germany while Greece moves into the Black Sea.

By 400 AD Rome controls most of what was the Western Empire plus Germany, minus Sicily & Naples. Greece holds most of the Eastern Empire, plus Crimea, minus Eygpt.

Under impact of the Huns, Goths, ect Rome loses Germany, and Greece loses the North Black Sea Territories. But by 1000 AD they had both recovered the lost Terriories
I'd say the Carthaginians would hold out against the Romans.

This gives us Rome in the northern half of Italy, Gaul, Germania, and Britain, almost analogous in territory to the HRE.

Carthage would hold Spain, North Africa, perhaps Egypt and a few of the islands in the Med, maybe even some in the Atlantic.

Greece would hold Greece, Thrace, Anatolia, and possibly Pannonia, Dacia, and Crimea.
 
DuQuense said:
Alexander's Uncle set up a Italote League, of the greek cities in Italy. It fall apart after the Uncle was killed, Have him survice a few more years. When Alexander is conquering Greece, the League gets involved against Alex. After taking Greece, Alex moves into Italy, ending up in Sicily [S yra que].
This brings Alex into conflict with the Carthagians, & the Romans, After several battles the Carthagians & Greeks divide the Med, into East & West.

Greece holds the south & east coasts of Italy, Rome holds the Northwest Coast, Over the next couple centuries Rome moves north into Gaul and Germany while Greece moves into the Black Sea.

By 400 AD Rome controls most of what was the Western Empire plus Germany, minus Sicily & Naples. Greece holds most of the Eastern Empire, plus Crimea, minus Eygpt.

Under impact of the Huns, Goths, ect Rome loses Germany, and Greece loses the North Black Sea Territories. But by 1000 AD they had both recovered the lost Terriories[/QUOTE

Pretty good Dequense, What about have an Corinthan Based empire

****
League of Corinth
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The League of Corinth was a federation of Greek states created by Philip II of Macedon during the winter of 338 BC/337 BC to facilitate his use of Greek military forces in his war against Persia.

The major provisions were:

Member states' constitutions in force at the time of joining were guaranteed.
The Synedrion, or congress of representatives, was to meet at Corinth.
The League would act to prevent any acts of aggression or subversion against any member state.
The League would maintain an army levied from member states in approximate proportion to their size.
Philip was declared commander of the League's army.
In addition to the provisions of the League, Philip garrisoned soldiers in Corinth, Thebes, and Ambracia. He was powerful enough to impose these measures because he had just defeated an alliance of Theban and Athenian forces at the Battle of Chaeronea.

*****

Have someone smart enough to consolidate the Leauge after Alexander's death. An Maybe if the greeks colonized more of europe and consolidate their holdings of Asia Minor, Sure Its an rocky start but it is plausible
 
Would this ATL merely lead to a Greece like OTL but with fewer Turkish words got into the Greek language and fewer Turkish-looking Greek surnames (e.g. Botsoglou) and fewer Turkish place names in Greece? Most people's idea of a surviving Classical Greece would be the classical language and religion surviving. The language surviving would need no Greek-speaking empire, because OTL Latin and Greece changed so fast during the period of empire because each had to assimilate far too many speakers of other languages at the same time.

Long ago, desire to write Homeric-type Greek poetry (largely about scuba diving :) ) led me to invent a fictional land that spoke ancient Greek and worshipped the old gods, at the present day to allow the scuba diving :: I soon realized that it had to be isolated in a remote part of the world and not in Greece.
 
Here is an timeline that I found over at the Archives, I anm thinking about continuing it till the present day. enjoy

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PROLOGUE -- THE PELOPONNESIAN WAR

431 BC -- Peloponnesian War breaks out in a dispute over the city of Potidaea.
430 -- Sparta begins its annual invasion and pillaging of Attica, forcing the people to flee behind the long walls of Athens. The result is overcrowding of Athens, unsanitary conditions, and plague.
429 -- Pericles dies of the Athenian plague
428 -- Plato is born.
427 -- Mytilene (Lesbos) revolts against the Delian League. It is crushed.
426 -- Battle of Pylos, where the Athenians defeat the Spartans. This encourages the Athenians to continue the war despite Pericles' death.
424 -- Battle of Delion, where the Athenians are defeated by a Theban contingent of the Peloponnesian League. Thucydides, who was in command at the time, is exiled for negligence (although it was not his fault). He later writes his book "The Peloponnesian War."
POD: Alcibiades is killed during the battle. Socrates is able to escape in the retreat with the help of Thucydides. They later become good friends. Socrates would correspond at length with Thucydides in exile. Thucydides is impressed by Socrates' revolutionary ideas and suggests that he enter politics. (Thucydides carries a grudge against the democracy for his exile.) Socrates rebuffs this suggestion but continues his usual arguments in the City.
423 -- A one-year truce is declared. Aristophanes produces his comic play "The Clouds" in which Socrates is presented as a corrupt influence on young men.
422 -- Battle of Amphipolis, with massive losses on both sides. Cleon (Athenian general) and Brasidas (Spartan general) both killed during the battle. This convinces both sides to sue for peace.
421 -- Peace of Nicias. Thebes refuses to sign the treaty and leaves the Peloponnesian League in disgust.

PERIOD OF NICIAS

420 -- The Olympic Games are held, where Nicias announces "Let the Hellenes be at peace."
419 -- Nicias becomes the leading politician in Athens, gathering extensive public support for his peace-making policies with Sparta. Under his administration, the peace treaty is expanded to have the two powers avoid entanglements among the allies of the other. This becomes the traditional foreign policy of both leagues for generations to come. {Without the fury and flamboyance of Alcibiades, the Athenian public is not enticed to restart aggression, and bears strong memory of the disastrous battle at Amphipolis, as well as the Athenian plague.}
418 -- Nicias proposes the construction of an extensive system of forts along the border of Attica to protect it from invasion (such as had occured during the war). Over the next 40 years, more and more fortifications would be built until the border would be comparable to the Great Wall of China. Sparta and Thebes, Athens' neighbors, become increasingly suspicious.
413 -- The Spartans conclude a (defensive) alliance with the Persians, through the satrap (governor) of Lydia-Caria, Tissaphernes, who provides them with funding for a fleet to match that of Athens. Meanwhile, the Boeotian Federation, under the control of Thebes, also concludes a separate alliance with Persia.
412 -- Beginning of the Persian-Theban War (412-408 BC). Tissaphernes declares war on the Greek cities on the Aegean coast of Anatolia, effectively declaring war on the Delian League. The Boeotians activate their alliance with the Persians and declare war on the Delian League. The Spartans are enticed by the Thebans to join them but they hold fast to the Peace of Nicias, and remain neutral.
411 -- The Athenians repel the Theban forces at Decelea. Thanks in great part to the fortification system begun 7 years earlier, the Thebans are unable to pass enough troops to make sufficient pressure to penetrate into Attica.
The Perians under Tissaphernes, meanwhile, ravage Aeolia and Ionia.
410 -- Several Ionian cities, including Miletus, Ephesus and Samos, seize the opportunity of confusion to declare independence from the Delian League before they are invaded by the Persians. They then conclude an alliance with Persia, offering their help against the Delian League.
409 -- The Athenians defeat the combined forces of the Persians and Ionian allies at the battle of Colophon, bringing Ionia back under Athenian control. Severe punishments are levied on the Ionians in the form of property seizures of the leadership and taxation.
408 -- The Battle of Cyzicus, where the Athenian navy defeats the Persians. Peace treaty is concluded with Persia in which she renounces all claims to Greek cities in Anatolia.
405 -- Dionysius the Elder (ruled 405 - 367) becomes the tyrant of Syracuse, routing the Carthaginians. Under his leadership, Syracuse becomes an ally of Sparta, and is able to seize control of all of Sicily, as well as much of the "foot" of Italy. Syracuse becomes one of the most splendid of all Greek city-states, and has a navy that rivals that of the Delian League.
404 -- Plato is convinced by his relatives to enter politics. (In OTL, he distances himself from politics because of the catastrophes of the Peloponnesian War, but in this ATL, there is still hope.)
n Darius II of Persia dies, prompting Egypt to rebel under the leadership of Amyrtaeus of Sais, who founds the 28th Dynasty.

PLATONIC PERIOD

395 - 348 BC -- Plato is elected Strategos of Athens and begins his program of transforming the Delian League into his own vision of a philosophical state. He introduces an examined civil service, founds a standard of education through the Academia, and reorganizes the League's military into cohesive mixtures of recruits from various member states.
His social programs render the league citizens to resemble more the Spartan way of life, over time. Children come to be raised by the state from an early age into one of the three tiers of government: statesmen, soldiers, and laborers. This is determined by examination. Wealth becomes increasingly under the sole control of the state, and distributed according to its needs. Civil rights become increasingly eroded and the Democracy becomes a shell of its former self, since only those who were raised as statesmen-philosophers can take part in government.
Social turmoil in the Delian League becomes commonplace, but is quelled. As the state exercises more and more control over the lives of the people, these rebellions become less common.
390 -- The Athenians forge an alliance with the recently independent kingdom of Egypt. The Athenian commander Chabrias is dispatched with a fleet and army to help the Egyptians prevent reconquest from the Persians.
385 -- Pelopidas becomes Boeotarch (chief magistrate of the Boeotian Federation) and launches a series of wars into neighboring regions of Hellas. Over the next 10 years, he would expand the Federation into Thessaly, Phocis, Acarnia, and Achaea.
382 -- Philip (who would become Philip II of Macedonia) is born in Pella.
380 -- The Great Wall of Attica is completed.
378 -- Plato writes his book, Sophiocracy, which reflects his plans for organizing into a government divided into 3 classes: philosopher-statesmen, militarists, and workers.
373 -- The Persians attempt to recapture Egypt again but are driven off by the combined forces of the Egyptian and Athenian forces.
371 -- Pelopidas dies and is succeeded by his long time friend and second-in-command, Epaminondas.
370 -- Amyntas III, king of Macedonia, is able to drive off the last of the barbarian incursions.
370 - 360 BC -- Philip of Macedonia is a hostage in Thebes.
370 - 362 BC -- Epaminondas continues the gains of Pelopidas by waging war against the Peloponnesian League. A series of successful campaigns in the Peloponnese stirs revolts in Arcadia and Messenia, but they are put down until Epaminondas is finally killed at the battle of Tegea.
367 -- Dionysius the Younger succeeds his father as tyrant of Syracuse.
360 -- War between Egypt and the Persian Empire erupts due to the aggressive new pharaoh. Under the leadership of the Pharaoh Tachos (Djeho), Egyptian and Athenian forces invade Palestine with great success, penetrating all the way to Phoenicia. In response to this success, Cyprus revolts. The Athenians are quick to gain Cyprus as an ally, and by 355, it is admitted to the Delian League as a member.
For the first time in centuries, Egypt is once again an imperial power, thanks to the military and financial support of the Delian League while the Athenians gain trade interests along the Eastern Mediterranean coast.
359 -- Philip II, youngest son of Amyntas III, becomes king of Macedonia after his two younger brothers are killed in civil war against each other.
358 - 346 BC -- Macedonian War. Philip II begins a series of campaigns that initially begin as an attempt to capture the Delian League city of Amphipolis. Amphipolis is captured by 357. In 356, Philip expands into Thrace. His successes convince the Thebans to join in an alliance with the Athenians, against him. This prompts Philip to advance into Thessaly from 355-348. (Remember that, at the time, Thessaly was a member of the Boeotian Federation.) Philip is repelled at the battle of Thermopylae and withdraws to fortify his remaining gains in Thessaly.
357 - 336 BC -- Syracuse enters a tumultuous civil war when Dionysius the Younger is challenged by his uncle, Dion. Dion is able to defeat Dionysius in 354 but is later assasinated by Timoleon, a Corinthian who was in Dion's military service, who, in 344, solidifies his control by requesting help from the Peloponnesian League. Help comes just in time to route a new Carthaginian assault in Sicily. The result of the affair is that Syracuse joins the League as a formal member in 336.
350 -- The Athenians become distracted from the Macedonian War, by coming to the aid of the Egyptians once again when the Persians, under the cruel Artaxerxes III, attack again, in an attempt to recapture Egypt. At the battle of Sidon, the Persians are only repulsed with great losses on both sides.
348 -- Plato dies of natural causes. The attrition in the Phoenician expedition as well as Plato's death causes the Athenians to lose their resolve in the war. The Thebans unsuccessfully try to make gains in Thessaly against Philip II but no longer have the ingenuity to do so, ever since the death of Epaminondas.
346 -- Treaty of Larisa ends the Macedonian War. The Thebans are forced to cede Thessaly to Philip, while the Athenians cede Amphipolis. Once again, the Thebans are outraged and accuse the Athenians of selling them out to the Macedonians in order to save their own hide. They believed they could continue the war after Thermopylae and win further victories. The Thebans end their temporary alliance with Athens.

PERIOD OF DEMOSTHENES

345 -- Demosthenes is elected to Strategos and continues much of the policies of Plato. The Academia becomes the effective residence of the Strategos.
344 - 340 BC -- Philip continues his campaigns in Thrace, subjugating the tribes there and reaching all the way to the Pontus Euxinus (Black Sea), where he founds the city of Philippaion.
343 -- The Persians yet again attempt to recapture Egypt without success.
340 - 336 BC -- Latin War. Rome?s Latin allies fight a war of independence, dragging the Campanians in as allies. As Rome begins to overcome the revolt, the Campanians request the help of the Peloponnesian League. The Syracusans and Spartans send aid that eventually turns the tide of the war against the Romans. As a result, Rome is defeated and ceases to be a major power in Italy. The Campanians are eventually brought in as allies and join the Peloponnesian League in 331 BC.
339 - 338 BC -- Thebes, finally angered at Philip expansion, declares war. Thebes is defeated at the Battle of Chaeronaea (338 BC), and the Boeotian Federation is dissolved and replaced with the Macedonian League, encompasing Boeotia, Acharnia, and Thessaly. Philip II is declared a permanent hegemon (president) of the league.
The Spartans manage to absorb Achaea into the Peloponnesian League, in the confusion of the war.
337 -- Philip offers the two leagues an alliance, on numerous occasions with plans to invade the Persian Empire. These offers are refused.
336 ? Philip II is murdered and his flamboyant son, Alexander III, ascends the throne in his place.

EPILOGUE

Alexander III spends much of his reign attempting to unite the rest of Greece under his power, where he comes to be successful eventually. After a prolonged series of conflicts, Alexander establishes the Corinthian League in 311 BC. Henceforth, he spends his time organizing the League and quelling insurrections all the way up to his death in 296 BC. For his achievement in unifying Greece, he comes to be known as Alexander the Great. A great library is later built in Alexandropolis (in Thrace) as well as Aristotle?s philosophical school, the Aristoteleon.


The Persian Empire never falls to the Greeks, since Alexander never gets his chance. Hellenism does not spread as it did in OTL. Instead, the Persian Empire continues to decay from within and falls to the Parthians around 250 BC.

The Carthaginians, daunted by their defeats in Sicily, expand westward in Hispania, as well as Corsica, and Sardinia, over the next 100 years. The Syracusans, deprived of support from the Peloponnesian League, flounder in their power over Italy. When the family of the Barcids (Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, and Hannibal) come to power in the mid 3rd century BC, Carthage enters an period of rapid expansion in southern France, Italy, and later Sicily.

Thus, the 2nd century BC is dominated by: the Carthaginian Republic in the west, the kingdom of Macedonia, which controls all of Hellas including western Anatolia, the Parthian Empire, and the kingdom of Egypt under the 30th dynasty.
 
Classical Greece surviging to taday? Not likely. I can't see a Hoplite standing much in the way of a modern battle tank. :p

Torqumada
 
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