SA and Röhm in power instead of Hitler

I will try to make a series of alternate histories that all have their offspring in one PoD:

The long knife breaks before sunset – i.e. Röhm and his 4,5 million men SA are one step ahead of Hitler and on say 7th of May 1934 (Hitler’s OTL coup against Röhm was in June) core units of the SA in a well co-ordinated action falls over the (still tiny) SS, Hitler loyal Nazis (Himmler and Göring first of all) and the Reichswehr. Hitler is instantly killed, but to the public Röhm says that he “has been forced to intervene against traitors trying to overthrow our beloved Führer and weaken the nazi ideologi. Unfortunately the Führer fell in the battle, but just before dying in my arms he urged me to take over and purify the nazi movement. I have taken that burden on my shoulders!â€

The first ATL goes from 1934-36, and I would especially like some opinion on whether Röhm and the SA actually can succeed in couping Hitler. Will there follow a civil war and are any foreign powers likely to intervene?

For background I can inform that Röhm was considdered the militant wing of the Nazi movement (!), and that the Reichswehr increasingly was worried about being absorbed into a fully armed SA and in OTL 1934 rumors started spreading in the circles around Hitler about Röhm planning a coup. As an illustration of how the outside world saw Hitlers OTL coup in June is the quote from Daily Mail on 2nd of July 1934:

“Herr Adolf Hitler, the German Chancellor, has saved his country. Swiftly and with exorable severity, he has delivered Germany from men who had become a danger to the unity of the German people and to the order of the state. With lightening rapidity he has caused them to be removed from high office, to be arrested, and put to death.
The names of the men who have been shot by his orders are already known. Hitler's love of Germany has triumphed over private friendships and fidelity to comrades who had stood shoulder to shoulder with him in the fight for Germany's future.“

I the next ATL I will try to go on from 1936 based on your inputs on the 1934-36 TL.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

The best thing that could have happened

The British and French establishments would never have backed Rohm the way they backed Hitler. By then the SA could have defended itself against the army, so they would have stayed in power, but without the hope of taking back the Rhineland, much less Austria, Danzig, the Sudetenland, or the Correidor. The best result for Europe, Germany, the Jews, and the Gypsies.
Of course, that assumes that Russia wasn't going to invade...

I foresee an approx 18 month period where there is a form of National Socialism a little less evil, a little more Socialist and a lot more flaky. Rohm was close to being of the closet about his homosexuality. Increasing opposition to him by the Churches as well as distrust within the Army leads inevitably to a military coup.

Thanks wkwillis and Tom B for your responses.

1934-36 ATL:

So Röhm takes over power, while persons like Hitler, Göring and Himmler disappear into obscurity. Under Röhm the prosecution of Jews and other enemies continue, but in a more street gang terror like way, i.e. SA units roaming the streets and beating up anybody not looking aryan enough, burning down homes and shops etc.

Röhm gets the idea of issuing Privateer licences to anybody able to document their aryan background and with that licence you are simply allowed to keep anything you can take from a jew, and millions of licences are issues in a few months, but soon some of the privateers start to take all the talk about the conspiracy of capitalism and judaism very serious and start to plunder rich Germans. Röhm is asked by some of his advisors to stop this before it goes completely out of control, but replies by announcing a widespread nationalisation programme of German industry and land under the name of "Willen des Volkes" (Will of the People). The army is transformed into a huge "Revolutionary Guard" thing focussing on stormtrooper infantry tactics. By late 1935 more than 5 million Germans are under weapons and the number is still rising the ambition being 15 million men under arms. Some of the SA gangs also start to wear very bizarre uniforms, and even make-up, and rumours soon start to spead about what is going on at the SA meetings (Lt. Grueber and his little tank of Allo-allo fame should have a great carreer, but Helga would be sadly superflous).

During all this the world wonders what on earth is going on in Germany. Where Hitler had a certain amount of respect for bringing order etc. (trains running on schedule and getting rid of commies) Röhm is simply to weird. Not so much because of the racist part, most people, in- or outside Germany, are more or less racist, but when the SA gangs start assulting good German families and their property it is increasingly difficult to see anything preferable in the nazis compared to the dreaded communists. And then all these stories of things certainly not to be mentioned, but at least some gets an idea when clergymen over and over mentions Germany being our time Sodom. And now Röhm announces this nationalisation programme, that really hits the nail! In France and UK things are discussed secretly with representatives of the German industry, armed forces and Churches and in Italy worried members of the nazi party asks Mussolini for help. In Moscow Stalin is worried over reports about German communists enthusiastically joining the nazi party.

Röhm has so far not been very interested in foreign matters focussing on his internal revolution, but do express some admiration of the Italian campaign in Abyssinia and demanding back the lost German colonies. In Germany however the humiliation of no German troops allowed in the Rhineland is becomming a hot issue. In spring 1936 France states that she will still not accept any German military presence in the Rhineland and troops are sent to the border. Mussolini makes a long speach which in short says: "Easy now, please let me mediate before you let go!".

Now it's July 1936 and Franco has landed in mainland Spain with his fascist rebels and at once earn vocal support from Mussolini and Röhm.

What next?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

I don't think that the army'd have a chance against the SA. As we know, there were only 100,000 men in the army, and they had no heavy weapons (tanks, subs, planes). So if Röhm stages the coup before Hitler does, he could win.
I don't think, however, that Röhm would demand the German colonies back; he'd go for the east too, and before that, he'd try to collect the land populated by Germans (like Hitler did).
The German economy might well be wrecked even faster than by Hitler, and, let's say, around 1936, Röhm has to make war against Austria / Czechs / Poland. And that war could be over very fast... (and we'd be better off than in OTL!)

Krupp et al. in big trouble

Wasn't the purge of the SA a prerequisite to Hitler's aligning himself with big business and military interests? What effect would an SA regime have on the German cartels?

Max Sinister said:

I don't think that the army'd have a chance against the SA. As we know, there were only 100,000 men in the army, and they had no heavy weapons (tanks, subs, planes). So if Röhm stages the coup before Hitler does, he could win.
I don't think, however, that Röhm would demand the German colonies back; he'd go for the east too, and before that, he'd try to collect the land populated by Germans (like Hitler did).
The German economy might well be wrecked even faster than by Hitler, and, let's say, around 1936, Röhm has to make war against Austria / Czechs / Poland. And that war could be over very fast... (and we'd be better off than in OTL!)

Click to expand...

I would say that the army would win. The heavy weaponry is quite useless in street fighting (esp. the subs ), and some kind of armored cars with machine guns existed. Appart from the army, there are also the formations of the Landespolizei, which won´t be as brown in 1934 than they will be later, and the TeNo (technischer Notdienst - technichal emergency service) as a non-fighting back-up if the SA starts to be rough with the infrastructure and asks for a general strike. And the biggest point: ARTILLERY.

In 1932, before they took power, the SA had 200.000 members, swellling to 700.000 in 1934. I would say we can asume taht a large portion is there out of opportunity, not conviction.
And given the army´s prestige, I would think most will refuse to act.


More important,they won´t have this little bit of legitimacy acting in the name of an appointed government gave in the 30s.

Regarding Goering he is a surprisingly key figure at this time (well, surprising if you base your impressions of him on the bloated failure of the later war years). If Rohm does not kill him, then he could well be the figure that has a right wing resistance coalesce around him, especially if Hitler is dead. Goering had links to the aristocracy and royalty, and would be seen by these as a much better option than either Rohm or a vaccuum. Also, it cannot be forgotten that Hindenburg is still alive, he is pro-monarchist and in his will stated his desire for the presidential system to die and be replaced by a restoration. Rohm is going to find that a lot more difficult to deal with IMHO than Hitler did

Grey Wolf

Thanks for the responses, all very contributing.

AFAIK the SA was 700.000 in 1933 when Hitler came to power but had swollen to 4,5 million in 1934 before the coup. But anyway this even more underlines the other Steffen’s point about most being there for mainly opportunistic reasons (and perhaps why the other Nazis felt they needed to get rid of Röhm) . Röhn apparently was quite frank about his ambition of having the future army formed around the SA (and not the Reichswehr), and I guess it would not be impossible to imagine millions of SA men being under some sort of (light) arms and command inside a year or so from a Röhm takeover. That would of course not neccesarily mean all those men being actively loyal to Röhm in case of civil war/coup, but even if it is only say 700.000 (the members when the nazis came to power in 33) that will still be quite a number for the 100.000 man Reichswehr, which despite being very professional (each man basically was meant to be a potential NCO in a coming expanded army), still is very short of most heavy weapons.

I basically imagine a situation where Röhm has taken everybody by surprise with his coup in May 34 and at least momentarily has paralysed the Reichswehr by liquidating the top leadership, but letting the basic structure reimain for now, as he knows he is not yet powerful enough to completely abolish the Reichswehr. Those of Röhms enemies still alive (mainly from old officer class, big business + surviving Hitler loyals) will of course also know that they are living on borrowed time, and that something has to be done soon.

This is where my next plea for advice comes in. How plausible will it be for the Röhm enemies to ask for foreign assistance to overthrow Röhm? Foreign assistance will of course be handy in the number of men and guns that can be brought to bear, but would open foreign interferrence in mid 30’s for ever destroy the Röhm enemies' creditability among the Germans, something like what happened to Louis XVI when he sought help among the old enemies of France?

But if the anti-Röhms decide to ask for foreign aid I guess the old officer class (Reichswehr) and the big business (headed by Krupp?) will prefer to look west to mainly France, but perhaps the old elite and the remnants of the Hitler loyal nazis can better find together in having Mussolini intervene, that would perhaps also be a more acceptable solution to most Germans compared to having Frenchmen roaming Germany again. But the question is if the French can be kept out now that they don’t have the assurance of Hitler outbalancing Röhm’s anarchy.

I doubt the British will so far be interested in intervening. It still needs more than good imagination to see Röhm’s street gang system as a threat to the Empire, almost no matter what he says, and anyway Max is probably right that Röhm would not start by demanding back the colonies, even Röhm would be able to see that Germany is very far from having the (sea)power to back such a demand. In OTL mid 30’s it also was the British who usually told the French to calm down over Germany.

I find the idea of Austrian intervention intriguing. At this time Austria had a semi fascist government looking much to Italy and opposing anschluss to Germany. Could we have Dolfuss or his follower von Schuschnigg (OTL Dolfuss murdered by German nazis in July 34) head an anti-Röhm coalition together with Czechoslovakia (and Poland and Hungary?) and with Italy as the puppeteer?

Could we make a plausible ATL where Austria and Czechoslovakia (+ Poland and Hungary?) are called upon by some respectable/respected Germans to “come to the aid of decencyâ€. And who should that/those respectable and respected Germans be? Hindenburg died old and senile in august 34, so he’s really out too early, but who else would be suitable? I agree with Grey Wolf that Göring could fill in, but as he in OTL was instrumental in convincing Hitler that Röhm should not only be dethroned but killed, I guess he is likely to be a main target for Röhm in the coup. But we could of course have Göring escape. Something like a dramatic car chase (in shiny Mercedes convertibles) to an airfield where the old WWI ace mounts an airplane (after having knocked out the owner) and escapes with bullets wispering near by – that would certainly be how Göring would like the world to imagine it.

Anyway, if Röhm is left alone I agree that there is a great chance that his system just collapses by it self before it can become a big threat to the neighbours. But in the meantime a lot of Germans will have suffered a lot (collapsed economy perhaps even famine), and I guess that motivates to seek foreign help.

Ideas, advice and comments are welcome.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

SA and Rohm in power

Hi Redbeard. I haave a degree in history and am very interested in the period from 33 til the failed assasination of 44. I wrote a paper on the Waffen SS. Ask me and I'"ll try to help. If Dollfuss survived an assssasination he would move to join Mussolini and both warn Rohm "Hands Off!". BTW I believe Heydrich and Schellenberg of SD and Final Solution would hide out under protection of Goering. Also Canaris of Abwehr would survive and conive with the others and maybe foreign people to get Rohm. I DON'T see Rohm surviving long. I feel a plot would work.

Thanks Ed, I'll be glad to use your inputs.

We appear to have a consensus about Röhm not lasting long. We could say that by 1936 Göring with heavy financial support from German and international big business and political support from Austria, Czechoslovakia and Italy have built an exile army based in Austria and a dense underground network in Germany (making alliances with other political groups like the soicialdemocrats and conservatives/religious), and after intesifying unrest in Germany the Exile Army supported by Austrian and Czechoslovak armies enter SE Germany (Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia). Germany soon enters total chaos as the SA gangs in general prefer to terrorise and plunder their own population than going to the front. The Poles and French decide not to let this opportunity pass and sends Army collums into Germany in "humanitarian actions" (Danzig and Rhineland respectively). Göring is sure that Röhm's time is over, but prefer as little as possible of Germany occupied by Poland or France. So he succeeds in utilising his good connections to Sweden (his first wife was from a influential Swedish family) and invokes a secret agreemnet with the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian governments and soon Swedish troops are landed in East Prussia and Pommerania and a Danish/Norwegian expeditionary corps is sent down into Schleswig-Holstein, were it soon reaches Hamburg. Hungarian troops soon join the Austrian and CS troops as well as an Italian Legion of "volunteers". Dutch and British troops occupy NW German ports in the last days of the war.

In a few months all of Germany is under control of anti-Röhms. Göring with his Austrian, Czechoslovak, Hungarian and Italian allies control most of Germany but the French have everything west of the Rhine, Netherland and UK the North Sea ports, Denmark and Norway Schleswig-Holstein and Hamburg, Sweden controls Pommerania and East Prussia and Poland the Danzig corridor.

Stalin speaks openly of capitalism again raping the German people, but on the initiative of the US president a conference is arranged to discuss the future of Germany. Stalin is not invited...

If this is plausible then I guess Göring is a lot more dependent on not-nazi forces than Hitler ever was. Wouldn't that keep away the most bizarre/horrendous elements of nazism, i.e. final solution and wouldn't a type like Göring also be quite satisfied by being a corrupt dictator of Germany? Anyway it must be limited how much you can count on conquering the world if you are a junior partner to Mussolini.

But Fascism will also be unchalenged a lot longer and control most of continental Europe. I guess Italy still has performed the Abyssinian campaign in 1935 and hereby initiated the British rearmament, but I believe the Italians planned for not being involved in a major war until 1942/43.

The question is however if the Italians can control the continent for very long. The countries along the Danube could have an interest in a kind of reincarnated Habsburg Empire, but just without the Habsburgs and in a federation. I could imagine British and French diplomacy supporting that heavily (Churchill talked about a Danube Federation even after WWII).

The Japanese will be in a very difficult position, as both UK and France are now uncommitted in Europe and the Americans as pissed by the Japanese in China as in OTL.

Stalin will be sitting on the fence and hoping for a more substantial European war upon which he can just sweep in and harvest.

Comments?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Redbeard, this seems a bit excessive with everybody getting in on the act. Not that I have a better alternative off the top of my head, but I don't think Rohm's Germany would be seen as an international pariah, more like a nutjob for Germany perhaps analogous to Bela Kun in Hungary - sort of how the heck did he get there, oh well he won't last long lets give him a push. But not a full-blown invasion by everybody

Grey Wolf

You are probably right, I got carried away with the possibility to have everybody try and secure their part of the loot, even the oh so peaceful Scandinavians. And if they all get in there is a big risk that they can't agree on where to stop = war over the loot.

I'm sure though, that Röhm would cause great worries in the international establishment, and that this will cause a big difference. Hitler's OTL deal with big business to a very large degree bought him acceptance, even admiration, but Röhm is a direct threat to the same establishment (and many other). In that context I guess no weapon will be spared, and if Röhm is pictured as a nutcase or not will solely depend on whether that serves the purpose of getting rid of him or not.

But no matter how Röhm is removed, I guess the result is a semi-fascist regime afterwards, but one with only remote possibilities of developing into the nazi monster we know from OTL. In short Germany will be more "puppet on a string" like than in OTL, where the leadership owed no foreign government their power and nor to the same degree was indebted to big business.

The biggest threats to international order (i.e. the British and French Empires + USA) will now probably now be Soviet Union, Italy and Japan, and I guess they would also now be capable of making a "Rippentrop-agreement" - the Ciano-agreement? Another Polish partion could also be tempting for a Danube federation having Galicia join the old gang from the Habsburg days. I'm not even sure the Galicians would eternaly oppose it.

With our 20/20 hindsight we know that the Italian ambitions weren't that dangerous, but by mid 30's neither UK, France nor USA were capable of waging a major war, and the Italian airforce was in mid 30's considdered the strongest in the world. I could imagine that a Italy with a dominant position on the European continent and evident colonial ambitions would be even more motivating for British and French rearmament plans than the OTL Germany shouting for Lebensraum in the east and repeatedly reassuring the British that they can keep their Empire.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard