Would D-DAY still have been attempted if Russia had fallen?

And more importantly would it have been successful?

Lets say that we take the infamous departure. At the beginning of the war with Russia, Hitler takes Moscow instead of turning south. For the most part the only thing left to do in Russia is to mop up Russian resistance as their leadership and most of their army is gone.

Germany turns west. America has joined the war recently.

The Allies realize Russia is done for. Would they have attempted a peace with Germany and focused on beating Japan (The British I am certain would never have) or would they attempt a D-Day? What would have been the resources necessary and the expected casualties, and the end result?
 
I think it would have been a disaster. Even if a big chunk of the eastern German army was tied down in garrison duty, they'd still be able to shift a lot of their crack armored divisions and air units over to France. The US and Brits would have to spend years building up a force big enough to roust them out of Europe....
 

Xen

Banned
The allies could certainly have beaten Germany if the United States was willing to pay the price of victory. It would have taken possibly two million lives to do, but there is no way Germany could keep up with the industrial might of the United States, and the determination of Britain. I could see the allies taking Norway, and moving into Siberia working with various factions to set up a fighting force out of the remnants of the old Soviet Army. The Russian Army would be equipped with everything American, trained by the United States and perhaps even led by officers from the US.

The war might last until 1948-1949 with most of America's resources being pumped into Europe. The US may even implement a program to starve Japan into submission, say that happens in 1946-47, they would move to clean up the Imperial remnants in Korea and Pacific and concentrate fully on Hitler. It would be intresting to see a rearmed Japanese force joining the allies against the Nazi's.

After the war, Russia, Germany and Japan are occupied by the allies, friendly democratic and yes capitalist government's are set up in the occupied countries and the Cold War is avoided.
 
Yes, but it was feasible? It seems to me that if the USA had really wanted to, they could have beaten Germany with British help. They would have had to have been willing to suffer millions of casualties, but were Americans willing to accept domination of Europe by a madman?
 
Xen said:
The war might last until 1948-1949 with most of America's resources being pumped into Europe. The US may even implement a program to starve Japan into submission, say that happens in 1946-47, they would move to clean up the Imperial remnants in Korea and Pacific and concentrate fully on Hitler. It would be intresting to see a rearmed Japanese force joining the allies against the Nazi's.

In 1945 Germany and Japan are both A-bombed, War is over before Christmas. One thing about this TL is that far fewer people would complain that the use of atomic weapons was unnecessary.
 
Tom_B said:
In 1945 Germany and Japan are both A-bombed, War is over before Christmas. One thing about this TL is that far fewer people would complain that the use of atomic weapons was unnecessary.

Is there evidence that America was going to drop the bomb in Germany? It seems to me that there would be a difference in people's mind at the time between dropping Superweapons on WHITE EUROPEANs and Asians. Not saying its right of course...
 

Faeelin

Banned
ktotwf said:
Is there evidence that America was going to drop the bomb in Germany? It seems to me that there would be a difference in people's mind at the time between dropping Superweapons on WHITE EUROPEANs and Asians. Not saying its right of course...

Well, tha depends. Do you believe military reports, opinions from real historians, and historical fact?

If so,then yes, itwould've been used.
 
Faeelin said:
Well, tha depends. Do you believe military reports, opinions from real historians, and historical fact?

If so,then yes, itwould've been used.

Oh, ok. I was just asking if there was evidence. I supposed that they probably would.
 
"Is there evidence that America was going to drop the bomb in Germany? It seems to me that there would be a difference in people's mind at the time between dropping Superweapons on WHITE EUROPEANs and Asians"

According to an interview with a nuclear scientist in Studs Terkels' The Good War, the A-Bomb would have been used on targets in Germany, but by the time it was ready, the Germans had surrendered. Someone else in the book said that most blacks believed that the bomb would never have been used on a "white city." However, I'm inclined to believe the nuclear scientist.
 
The bomb was originally developed to be dropped on germany. Several scientists were made uncomfortable by the fact that it was dropped on japan, instead of germany, who they viewed as the only target deserving of such an attack.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
"Is there evidence that America was going to drop the bomb in Germany? It seems to me that there would be a difference in people's mind at the time between dropping Superweapons on WHITE EUROPEANs and Asians"

According to an interview with a nuclear scientist in Studs Terkels' The Good War, the A-Bomb would have been used on targets in Germany, but by the time it was ready, the Germans had surrendered. Someone else in the book said that most blacks believed that the bomb would never have been used on a "white city." However, I'm inclined to believe the nuclear scientist.

They did raid Dresden (with conventional weapons), resulting in ca. 135,000 dead. This number is much larger than any of the estimates that I've seen for Hiroshima, which usually range between 70,000 and 120,000 dead. I'm not saying the people of Hiroshima were in any way more fortunate than the people of Dresden (anything but!) - rather, it would appear that we had little or no compunction about raining a fiery death upon the Jerries, white skin or not.
 
I think if the USSR bows out and Hitler sends his armies west to create an actual "Fortress Europe," the Allies would probably fight on the peripheries (North Africa, Italy, perhaps even Scandinavia) and save the "final assault" (D-Day basically) until after the A-bomb is created.

Then paste Berlin, Nuremberg, and major German troop concentrations and invade. What's left of the USSR could jump back in at that point. Germany's done for.
 
As long as Britain doesn't fall, Germany's fate is sealed. Even if Britain does fall (either by some latter-day Sealion -EXTREMELY UNLIKELY-, or by starvation as a result of a successful U-Boat campaign -an interesting ATL in and of itself), the war will continue. The B-36 was being developed for just such an eventuality, i.e. conventional bombing of Germany following the loss of European bases. Germany simply manages to win the "Drop an Atomic Bomb on Me" sweepstakes if they do well elsewhere, and there was NO DOUBT AT ALL (read the post-war writings of the nuclear scientists - who had no say in targeting - and the various military and political leaders - who did have a say - and it is quite clear that there would have been no delay in using the bomb against someone as dangerous as Hitler whether he was black/white/yellow or sky-blue. The whole 'we aren't going to bomb white folks' schtick wasn't even an idea until the revisionist historians of the 60s and 70s (who of course had to find yet another crime that white America could be accused of) decided that Hiroshima was a racist act...
 
ktotwf said:
And more importantly would it have been successful?

Lets say that we take the infamous departure. At the beginning of the war with Russia, Hitler takes Moscow instead of turning south. For the most part the only thing left to do in Russia is to mop up Russian resistance as their leadership and most of their army is gone.

Germany turns west. America has joined the war recently.

The Allies realize Russia is done for. Would they have attempted a peace with Germany and focused on beating Japan (The British I am certain would never have) or would they attempt a D-Day? What would have been the resources necessary and the expected casualties, and the end result?

Landing in northern France would have been suicidal due to heavy German defense. It would have probably ended through the use of nuclear bombs. I got a question though: How much did the scientists know about the threat from radiation? Would the US have used a nuke to clear a beachhead for the troops to land? Or would they have nuked German cities to get them to surrender?

If the US didn't have nukes the best strategy would have been probably to seek weak spots in the German defense and exploit them: Land in southern France, Greece, Siberia, push north from Iran into the causasus and central asia, land in Norway and Murmansk for a northern front. Probably a multi-pronged offensive, forcing Germany to divide its forces and shuttle them back and forth. With Allied domination of the sky it would be a challenging endeavor, but it still would we a long and bloody war.
 
Actually there was very, very little understanding of radiation and fallout when the first bombs were being built. Remember that the planners of Operation Olympic (the invasion of Kyushu) actually consider using multiple nukes to crack the landing beaches (want to think about the casualties from that little exercise?), so it isn't unreasonable to expect the same sort of planning for a putative D-Day++

Why do you assume that the Allies are going to have air superiority, much less air dominance? If the Germans conquer Russia (that is our POD, after all), they are going to have lots of spare resources (including much of Russia's oil) to build things to defend this empire of theirs with. One very strong likelihood is that they will build fighter aircraft in quantity, which is going to make any allied attempt to seize control of the skies problematic at best. Worse still, the USSR is a storehouse of all of those charming metals that the Germans needed for their jets, so the Me262 is likely to be waiting to greet our yankee flyboys when their arrive.

As a result of the point above (no guarantee of air-superiority) I suspect that once the bomb is developed and tested, it will be used against cities as quickly as possible. This will minimize casualties (ours, anyway...) and end this quickly, thus reducing the chance that the Germans will duplicate our efforts, or come up with something awful on their own...
 
air power

By the end of the war the US {AirForce} was bigger than ALL the rest of the World Combimed. Given no A-Bomb. We would have Dresdened, every city in Germany, if that is what it Takes. 5000 Bombers with 6000 fighter escot raids, dropping Naplam. :(
 
And the Germans, after having defeated the USSR in 1941 (thus not losing all of those planes on the Eastern front that they did in OTL), wouldn't use the resources to compete with us? You are assuming that the Germans will change nothing while we go whole hog building all of this.

Another issue is basing. You are assuming that Britain is still a viable base (fair assumption, but hardly definite, the U-boats in OTL almost knocked them out, this TL they might do better), but even so, the Germans could easily move their production centers out of range. B-17s weren't terribly useful past Berlin (B-24s weren't a whole lot better), and even the P-51 isn't going to escort strikes into Poland. Add to this that the Germans won't be short on fuel (hence their pilot training programs won't be curtailed, and they won't suffer the problems that caused), and it is a much less friendly sky than our people experienced in OTL.

There is no question that some terrible things could be arranged for the Germans (GOOD!), but it isn't as pat a solution as you ar emaking it out to be...
 
I'll have to agree with Scott on this one! Luftwaffe after a victory on the Eastern Front in ´41 would be very, very, very bad news for the US Airforce...
The German jet-fighters, or highly advanced piston-engine fighters, would be numerous, the pilots well-trained and most likely have combat experience, and the FlaK deadly with radar-guided 105mm guns and perhaps even missiles and what not...
Think of the resources the Germans would have if not involved in the heavy fighting against the USSR in ´42, ´43 and ´44. Partisan warfare is one thing, nasty and bloody, yes, but not nearly as all-consuming as open warfare.

But in the end I would think the nukes would break the Germans will to fight, but damn, it would be a looong and extremely unpleasant war! The Japanese only gave up after TWO bombs (and it was obvious to most Japanese decision-makers that they were completely beat before that). The Germans would not just give up (In OTL they didn't eventhough Germany was smashed flat) after a few ruined cities...

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.
 
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